colonel Posted March 25, 2014 Share #21 Posted March 25, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) No one is criticizing your camera, or your choice to buy it. However, I hated apartheid, and never visited South Africa; I have a Ducati, and no interest in Harley Davidson. I don't have to own these things to hold an informed opinion. Leica is a long way from being price conscious. But, lack of volume sales is a powerful indication of success for any business venture. Why did they drop the price; and why will an APS-C camera, with interchangeable lenses fare any better? So far, the X1, the X2 and X-Vario have been APS-C. We have a saying down here at the bottom of the World - " when you're in a hole, it's a good time to stop digging". I'm sure every buyer of the new T camera will swear black and blue that it's IQ is fantastic. Michael will write eloquently about its technical virtues. Jono will post some really good images, and will tell us he's sold all his other camera gear for this camera. And in less than a year, Leica will drop the price and dealers will be offering all sorts of deals to shift dead stock. No matter how beautifully wrapped, this won't sell volume, and it won't attract the premium markup. None of the Leica APS-C cameras did - adding an. Interchangeable mount won't make a jot of difference. Well my parents are South African, so we visited family regularly. I loved the country and still do, the political system was a shame rather then a reason to shun. My father made preparations to leave after he was setup by the local police, luckily it didn't stick due to quick thinking on his part, as he offered local black people free legal help, trying , often quite successfully, to 'get them off' harsh punishments such as whippings for often made up charges. - sorry not much connection to this topic just waffling a bit I understand that someone may have an opinion on something they have not used. But this only goes so far. Good IQ is a significant reason for people to buy cameras. It can not be easily dismissed. I think writing off any non-FF product is quite harsh. The market will decide. Fuji T1s are selling as well as Sony A7s, despite being roughly the same cost. Both are excellent cameras. There is a market for APS-C and the X1 and X2 series have sold pretty well. Leica is a premium product. Comparing on specs. alone is something Leica is never hoping to win on. Based on the IQ I see from the X-Vario, an interchangeable lens version would be very exciting. I agree its a tough market here, the Sony Alpha and Fuji X series cameras are excellent and the average salary photog is unlikely to consider a product that will probably be twice the cost. There will be people dead set against the T series,as they were against the M8 and the XV now. And they will be particularly upset and irreconcilable if the T series proves to be a success. However the amount of Omegas and Tags at work still dominate the Citizens and Tissots despite average salaries. There is no logical explanation for this either, but folk do often want quality the more unique products to give them pleasure. This is a key part of the Leica equation and an anathema to hard core amateur photographers, which I doubt there will ever be a reconciliation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Hi colonel, Take a look here X Vario reduced price. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted March 25, 2014 Share #22 Posted March 25, 2014 I don't object to APS-C - quite the contrary. I simply would like to see Leica bring out a product worthy of the name in specification, handling and performance that is competitive in 2014. Is that so much to ask? I have high hopes for the T - but not high expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2014 Share #23 Posted March 25, 2014 My Canon system is APS-C. I'm quite happy with it. In fact I considered 'trading up' to FF last year but decided to stick with what I had. If Leica made an APS-C system camera with the features I think are important I'd definately consider it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 25, 2014 Share #24 Posted March 25, 2014 I do think that there is a fundamental - and knee-jerk defensive - issue of communication here. "Motives" and "opinions" are ascribed to anyone who dares to not "get" the XV, which have no foundation in fact. The T has to be a success. If it is an XV with interchangeable lenses it will not be competitive, taken seriously by opinion formers, or selling at full price six months after launch. None of those things I want to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 25, 2014 Share #25 Posted March 25, 2014 The new Fuji XT-1 and Sony A6000 are selling well for two reasons. First, both feature very fast AF. Will Leica T? Probably not! Second, price is within reach for the excellent IQ offered. Will the T be priced within reach? Probably not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2014 Share #26 Posted March 25, 2014 Another point is that the 'luxury' market, which Leica are targetting, isn't supposed to be so price sensitive, which makes the decision to start cutting prices and offering other incentives to buy a little concerning for their overall marketing strategy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted March 25, 2014 Share #27 Posted March 25, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Quite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 25, 2014 Share #28 Posted March 25, 2014 Another point is that the 'luxury' market, which Leica are targetting, isn't supposed to be so price sensitive, which makes the decision to start cutting prices and offering other incentives to buy a little concerning for their overall marketing strategy. Not every product has to meet target Also there is no indication Leica has dropped any price, it's purely a shop offer The M240 has had a bigger drop to £4799 in the UK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 25, 2014 Share #29 Posted March 25, 2014 The new Fuji XT-1 and Sony A6000 are selling well for two reasons. First, both feature very fast AF. Will Leica T? Probably not! Second, price is within reach for the excellent IQ offered. Will the T be priced within reach? Probably not! We will see. The body on the XV is gorgeous. The T could easily have the new Sony 24mp sensor with no AA and more features (eg wifi). The focus on the XV is very good. It could be better but that never stopped the x-pro1 or X100 from selling originally. The T will not be priced in the xt1 or A6000 range, of that you can be sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 25, 2014 Share #30 Posted March 25, 2014 Also there is no indication Leica has dropped any price, it's purely a shop offerThe M240 has had a bigger drop to £4799 in the UK For what it’s worth we still pay full price (2450 Euro) for the X Vario in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2014 Share #31 Posted March 25, 2014 Not every product has to meet targetAlso there is no indication Leica has dropped any price, it's purely a shop offer The M240 has had a bigger drop to £4799 in the UK 'Shop offer' is the same thing. Dealers margins on new camera equipment are extremely fine. I expect any reduction/freebies are sponsored by the importer. Can you explain what you mean by "not every product has to meet target" ? I don't think the bean counters at Leica would agree! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 25, 2014 Share #32 Posted March 25, 2014 'Shop offer' is the same thing. Dealers margins on new camera equipment are extremely fine. I expect any reduction/freebies are sponsored by the importer. Well we can agree to differ. I don't think this is import or Leica related. I have been watching new Leica prices for many years as well as occasionally buying. The thing is that Leica products are very expensive, and Leica sells to shops in batches of 5. Whilst things are moving that is no issue, but as soon as there is some friction in the market dealers tend to panic and discount. 5x£5,100=£25,500, which is a lot of stock. As Leica M products have traditionally had more demand then supply, we are used to mostly no discounting. However I remember once I walked into a Leica shop in London two years ago which had three 50mm Summilux sitting on the shelves. Within 5 mins of chat the owner had offered me 10% off. This was in the midst of heavy demand generally of Leica products. I have seen this many times, shops stoically keeping to the penny price of Leica retail, but then instantly discounting when there is only few weeks of friction and they are holding stock. Now that Leica have mostly finished their move to Westlar and have much more capacity, we should start getting used to Leica equipment being discounted like any other camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted March 25, 2014 Share #33 Posted March 25, 2014 Harold - In the US your example would be strongest when it coincides with the end of the fiscal year for the camera store since businesses owe tax on inventory as well as sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunos Posted March 25, 2014 Share #34 Posted March 25, 2014 Sales and offers come and go. The current UK offer mostly coincides with the 100 year event which is a reasonable enough explanation to me. Luckily there is an organisation that tracks camera prices... The X Vario graph is very similar to the Sony A7 graph: Leica X Vario Best Price Sony Alpha A7 Body Best Price Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2014 Share #35 Posted March 25, 2014 Sales and offers come and go. The current UK offer mostly coincides with the 100 year event which is a reasonable enough explanation to me. Luckily there is an organisation that tracks camera prices... The X Vario graph is very similar to the Sony A7 graph: But as I pointed out, Leica aren't competing with brands like Sony. They are targetting the 'luxury' market. Burlington Arcade is not the kind of place where shops attract buyers with price reductions! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 25, 2014 Share #36 Posted March 25, 2014 But as I pointed out, Leica aren't competing with brands like Sony. They are targetting the 'luxury' market. Burlington Arcade is not the kind of place where shops attract buyers with price reductions! I don't know, Christmas, the January sales and the June sales are the busiest time of the luxury shops in London. And the luxury department stores Harrods, Selfridges, etc. do best during sales. In fact Harrods has dramatically increased its account holders 10% days off in the last few years, which apply to Leica as well ... There is nothing like getting some cash off a top brand. Anyway that is what my rich friends tell me. Of course we are talking about the 10,000s of millionaires here. This obviously doesn't apply to the billionaires, but there are only 100s of them .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunos Posted March 25, 2014 Share #37 Posted March 25, 2014 Everyone likes a bargain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2014 Share #38 Posted March 25, 2014 Fair enough, but I didn't realise Leica were targeting the 'cut price luxury' market Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 26, 2014 Share #39 Posted March 26, 2014 It's not just a UK offer B&H have also knocked something off the price. I don't think IQ is the issue, and I'm not actually saying the T will be a bad camera. Far from it. It just doesn't interest me, and I don't actually think it will interest the market. You say the X1, X2 & X-Vario sell well - where's the proof? The anecdotal feedback I get is that they are okay cameras (the X-Vario better), but not moving well at all ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted March 26, 2014 Share #40 Posted March 26, 2014 Just like any tech product that is continually being upgraded, all digital cameras tend to drop in price after a year or so on the market. Leica is not immune from this tendency, although any price drop is usually minimal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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