250swb Posted March 2, 2014 Share #21 Posted March 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The black dots are already manufactured, the special Leica script has already been designed, the hammer finish paint has been tested. We now only need to wait for some cosmetic combination of Leica design cues to be agreed and a strategic time of year chosen for an M240 make-over 'P' model to be released. There is then a one year countdown before the release of the 'M360'. Meanwhile competitive deals will be more and more common with the launch model M240. It's a good time to think about buying, especially second hand when they get traded in for the 'P' spec black dot upgrade. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Hi 250swb, Take a look here Price drop?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jcraf Posted March 2, 2014 Share #22 Posted March 2, 2014 Hmm, the M has image stabilsation, dedicated telephoto lenses, a vast range of menu options, zoom lens options, tilting LCD screens, and a client base where you can have conversations without reducing things to price, megapixels, and elitistism, .......I'll buy one! You say buying a Leica is a far greater aspirational achievement than buying an Olympus, well I'll say the better photographer has achieved their aspiration irrespective of what camera they buy. A crap photographer buying a Leica is still a crap photographer, a better photographer buying an Olympus is still a better photographer, and let's face it there are more inspirational images made with Holga's than Leica's at the moment. Steve Interesting view. Not sure I was being elitist. Just stating that a Leica is a different product to the others. I don't disagree with your view about the photographer's competence vs the equipment. I suppose there is a parallel in cars where, let's say, Ferrari owners could be considered elistist and that most of the vain and barely competent drivers who own them would be much better off in a Nissan GTR. There would be far fewer fat old men in loafers and hairpieces trying to extricate themselves from hedges! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted March 2, 2014 Share #23 Posted March 2, 2014 Oh yes, with an option of:either sterling silver or diamond-topped shutter release button and tiffany blue ostrich leather cladding with matching neckstrap. I'll be pre-ordering two of them tomorrow. Am I the only one who thinks the 100 years editions announced so far (d-lux 6 and S) are a bit plain? I was fully expecting a titanium M, I'm starting to doubt... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 2, 2014 Share #24 Posted March 2, 2014 I suppose there is a parallel in cars where, let's say, Ferrari owners could be considered elistist and that most of the vain and barely competent drivers who own them would be much better off in a Nissan GTR. The cliché may be true that generally speaking Ferrari owners don't drive their cars, they turn their garages into playpens and compare driving gloves with each other:) They may have aspired to own a Ferrari but they have taken a step back in getting from A to B quickly as ownership becomes an investment as soon as it is driven away from the showroom. A Nissan GTR would indeed be a better tool for many of them. Just as a Nikon or an Olympus would be a better tool for many photographers in terms of image making but who have been sidetracked by aspiring to a Leica. It is a cliché, but camera's are tools, and if a $8000 Leica does the job better than a $800 Nikon I say buy it, but do it on a rational basis, not because it is an aspirational step. Owning a Leica is as likely to neuter peoples photographic skills as improve them because as can be seen in forum discussions other things start to become important, like camera bags to protect an investment. I content myself with knowing my runabout ten year old Fiat Punto is exactly as fast as a Ferrari when traveling at the same speed limit, and my cheap Olympus EM5 is just as capable as my Leica MM at taking great photo's. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted March 2, 2014 Share #25 Posted March 2, 2014 We'll have to beg to differ on the aspiration thing. But photographic competence and aspiration to own a Leica are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Just as there will be good wheel men and women who aspire to a Ferrari and could drive the bollocks off it. None of my business I guess, but then what reasons exist to own an MM when an Oly M5 is just as good! For me, at least, there is some emotion and feel good in ownership of my Leicas. Not snobbishness, for few recognise what they are, and even fewer would know their cost. It all adds to the pleasure for me, which I never quite got with the others. Nikon, for me, came closest. F2AS black, with Noct Nikkor...,now there's a camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 2, 2014 Share #26 Posted March 2, 2014 ...Owning a Leica is as likely to neuter peoples photographic skills as improve them because as can be seen in forum discussions other things start to become important, like camera bags to protect an investment. I content myself with knowing my runabout ten year old Fiat Punto is exactly as fast as a Ferrari when traveling at the same speed limit, and my cheap Olympus EM5 is just as capable as my Leica MM at taking great photo's. Steve I disagree on both points. 1. Discussing accessories means contentment with the camera. When I am not looking to change my phone or camera I am often looking for new cases or accessories. 2. An EM5 or EM1 (I've had both) are so far off the quality of a Leica M that I wouldn't mention them in the same sentence. In fact the Fuji xtrans is a completely different league from any M4/3s sensor, let alone FF. Best Rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 2, 2014 Share #27 Posted March 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Smiley… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted March 3, 2014 Share #28 Posted March 3, 2014 Perfect Leica Marketing I'm afraid. Release a great product and then starve the market of supply while there's the most interest. Wait until Christmas is over and Sony, Olympus and Fuji have swept up the disappointed punters with competing products, and then flood the poor frustrated dealers with bodies they're struggle to shift. A pity - because the M is a really good camera... Chris I'm not convinced on almost all of that, The stuff between 'release a great product' and 'the M is a really good camera'. A rather cynical viewpoint you've expressed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 3, 2014 Share #29 Posted March 3, 2014 I disagree on both points.1. Discussing accessories means contentment with the camera. When I am not looking to change my phone or camera I am often looking for new cases or accessories. 2. An EM5 or EM1 (I've had both) are so far off the quality of a Leica M that I wouldn't mention them in the same sentence. In fact the Fuji xtrans is a completely different league from any M4/3s sensor, let alone FF. Best Rgds 1. The first thing many people do is ask about half cases and fancy straps and bags for their new camera. Contentment comes from long term experience, not accessorising on day one. This is why courtship precedes marriage, to make sure you are content with your choice. 2. You are confusing a good photograph with the amount of pixels in it. By your logic a Bresson image would be far inferior to any taken on an M because it has no pixels in it. Free yourself of thinking images are good or bad depending on the pixel count and sensor size of the camera and you would see a good photographer can make a better image with a P&S camera than a bad photographer with an M. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted March 3, 2014 Share #30 Posted March 3, 2014 <snip> An EM5 or EM1 (I've had both) are so far off the quality of a Leica M that I wouldn't mention them in the same sentence. <snip> ..... mmmmm. You just did:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted March 3, 2014 Share #31 Posted March 3, 2014 2. An EM5 or EM1 (I've had both) are so far off the quality of a Leica M that I wouldn't mention them in the same sentence. In fact the Fuji xtrans is a completely different league from any M4/3s sensor, let alone FF. Some images from this page seem quite good to me, and I have no doubt that if printed, I wouldn't even think to wonder if it was made on a crop sensor or ff : http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/02/12/the-olympus-e-m1-takes-manhattan-by-neil-buchan-grant/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 3, 2014 Share #32 Posted March 3, 2014 1. The first thing many people do is ask about half cases and fancy straps and bags for their new camera. Contentment comes from long term experience, not accessorising on day one. This is why courtship precedes marriage, to make sure you are content with your choice. 2. You are confusing a good photograph with the amount of pixels in it. By your logic a Bresson image would be far inferior to any taken on an M because it has no pixels in it. Free yourself of thinking images are good or bad depending on the pixel count and sensor size of the camera and you would see a good photographer can make a better image with a P&S camera than a bad photographer with an M. Steve Your answer to one is your own theory on human nature made up to back your argument. It does not apply to me or anyone I know. What are you mentioning pixels for ? There is noise in the E-M1 photo at base ISO and it gets worse from there. Not to mention stunted colour depth or dynamic range. Don't role out the old chesnut about "it's all the photographer". Everyone knows that. We are talking about technical capability of equipment. There is no 35mm or below camera/lens combination that get achieve the clarity, acuity and micro contrast of the M especially wide open. Except perhaps a A7R with a Leica lens (but not at the edges), but then we are talking about a different workflow. The M focus system remains the most accurate way to achieve focus of any system I have used. In terms of cost, apparently a minority of professionals buy the D4 or 1Dx monsters, a good FF camera is at least £1.5k. Any decent Nikon or canon lens is over £1k. The difference in price between a Leica M system and other FF systems is minimal as long as you have less lenses. Which suits me fine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted March 3, 2014 Share #33 Posted March 3, 2014 Isn't anything that cost as much as a Leica M240 an aspirational item for most people? If you aspire to capture the world around you in the way of a rangefinder, then other very technically capable choices do not enter into the equation … and if they do, they are a compromise of the original intent … shooting with a rangefinder. This is not to even suggest that wonderful images cannot be created with other types of cameras. It does mean that the experience of shooting will be different, and in most, if not all cases, very different. A rangefinder promotes a particular way of seeing and thinking that is unique. Those that have not experienced that, or can't seem to understand that even after using one, will never understand what those who DO get it are talking about. The only thing a digital M camera has to do is have an optical rangefinder, a reasonably good sensor, and work with M lenses. All else is technical icing on the cake … much of which would fall short when compared to alternatives if the optical rangefinder were missing. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 3, 2014 Share #34 Posted March 3, 2014 [quote name=jcraf;2640268 I suppose there is a parallel in cars where' date=' let's say, Ferrari owners could be considered elistist and that most of the vain and barely competent drivers who own them would be much better off in a Nissan GTR. [/quote] You need to get out a bit more and go to see some Ferrari rallies and Ferrari cup races, where the great majority owners drive their cars very fast and well. This includes most of the 250GTO cars, which are now worth in excess of $50M. Here are just two of us on a competitive rally, up on a very narrow and bumpy military road, high in the Swiss mountains, in the pouring rain last year. Not exactly being cosseted in an air conditioned garage! Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/222870-price-drop/?do=findComment&comment=2542741'>More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 3, 2014 Share #35 Posted March 3, 2014 I'm not sure that driving $50m cars on a classic car rally in Switzerland constitutes "getting out a bit more". Quite the contrary I'd say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2014 Share #36 Posted March 3, 2014 Isn't anything that cost as much as a Leica M240 an aspirational item for most people? ... The only thing a digital M camera has to do is have an optical rangefinder, a reasonably good sensor, and work with M lenses. All else is technical icing on the cake … much of which would fall short when compared to alternatives if the optical rangefinder were missing. - Marc Not all aspirational items find a buyer. ... That's why M8 is so great (in my case as a "Polaroid" for analog M) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 3, 2014 Share #37 Posted March 3, 2014 I'm not sure that driving $50m cars on a classic car rally in Switzerland constitutes "getting out a bit more". Quite the contrary I'd say. Ian the point I was trying to make is that the attitude of some that purchases of a Leica or a Ferrari are pure vanity purchases and neither get ever used but only fondled, are both equally wrong and equally irritating. In both cases it is only a minority that get the kid glove treatment and most are used frequently and hard. In rallies and races, it is common to see Ferraris with dents, well worn interiors and evidence that they have been long and hard used, just like a Leica with brassing, peeling leatherette and scratches. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted March 3, 2014 Share #38 Posted March 3, 2014 I know. I was only pulling your leg a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcraf Posted March 3, 2014 Share #39 Posted March 3, 2014 You need to get out a bit more and go to see some Ferrari rallies and Ferrari cup races, where the great majority owners drive their cars very fast and well. This includes most of the 250GTO cars, which are now worth in excess of $50M. Here are just two of us on a competitive rally, up on a very narrow and bumpy military road, high in the Swiss mountains, in the pouring rain last year. Not exactly being cosseted in an air conditioned garage! Wilson Not really. As an ex RAC-licensed motorsport doctor I've seen plenty of that sort of thing, including 'getting out more' in remote forests in freezing conditions, in the middle of the night, seeing the Group B rally cars slicing through the night, hoping it goes safely. And all 'gratis', just as with all the officials and marshals, because that's how it works. And of course doesn't work if those good folks don't turn up. But very enjoyable. And I've also seen plenty of rich characters with insufficient talent stuff it up, on rally stages and circuits (present company excepted, I'm sure)! I know that many owners of priceless classics do drive the arse off them....always great to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 3, 2014 Share #40 Posted March 3, 2014 Well, if you can afford a 50M$ car as a plaything, I guess a 1M$ repair is not much of dent in your weeky budget... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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