jaapv Posted February 21, 2014 Share #21 Posted February 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does professional use come under consumer laws? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2014 Posted February 21, 2014 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Either I'm one of the unluckiest Leica owner or seriously their QA is dreadful!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ozkar Posted February 21, 2014 Share #22 Posted February 21, 2014 Does professional use come under consumer laws? Yes it does, unless the manufacturer's warranty/guarantee explicitly states that it does not cover professional use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted February 21, 2014 Share #23 Posted February 21, 2014 from what I understand it doesn't matter what the manufacturers warranty says? It would be covered even if the manufacturer stated that there was no warranty at all- as it is a consumer grade product? if we watch this video here we may get an inkling where some of the dust/oil globs may have come come from- and we must ask: just how much would gloves cost? We can see time and again direct skin contact against the internal electronic components... Is this one of those special in-house Leica OEM lubricant secrets? Assembling The Leica M9 on Vimeo At least they have taken to wearing hair-nets since this film was made: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 21, 2014 Share #24 Posted February 21, 2014 Does professional use come under consumer laws? The Australian Consumer Law Guidance says that it mostly does. A consumer is a person (including a company) who buys: any type of goods or services costing up to $40,000 (or any other amount stated in the ACL Regulations) goods or services costing more than $40,000 which would normally be for personal, domestic or household use, or goods which consist of a vehicle or trailer used mainly to transport goods on public roads. from what I understand it doesn't matter what the manufacturers warranty says? It would be covered even if the manufacturer stated that there was no warranty at all- as it is a consumer grade product? The Australian Consumer Law imposes a set of "statutory consumer guarantees" in every sale of goods "in the way of trade" to a consumer. One of these is that the goods must be of "acceptable quality", which basically means that they must work, and continue to work, as well as, and for as long as, a reasonable consumer would expect in all the circumstances. The manufacturer's warranty can't dilute that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 22, 2014 Share #25 Posted February 22, 2014 The Australian Consumer Law Guidance says that it mostly does. A consumer is a person (including a company) who buys: The Australian Consumer Law imposes a set of "statutory consumer guarantees" in every sale of goods "in the way of trade" to a consumer. One of these is that the goods must be of "acceptable quality", which basically means that they must work, and continue to work, as well as, and for as long as, a reasonable consumer would expect in all the circumstances. The manufacturer's warranty can't dilute that. Thinking about it more and following on from our pms, perhaps you should just insist on immediate replacement with a new camera. It think that's what I'd be doing at this stage - you clearly got a lemon! My understanding is that much of the M240 order backlog has cleared here in Australia and they should be able to get you a new one very quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GicleeM Posted February 22, 2014 Share #26 Posted February 22, 2014 Huckles, I am sorry to say you are nowhere near the unluckiest Leica owner and I suspect there is a very long list of Australian owners that have suffered much worse. Currently I am reviewing the actions of Leica Australia with regard to the supply of equipment since September 2011 to a company that I own. We have had a new M240 ( supplied by Leica Australia as a replacement to a failed M9) that had multiple failures one day into an overseas assignment. The failure consisted of inaccurate rangefinder focus with a series of Leica supplied and under warrently lenses from 21 to 135mm, EVF overheats and lockup and partially exposed white frames using the advanced exposure. After return from the assigment in Late November all equipment we deemed unrepairable in Australia. Leica Australia is now asking for payment for many of the optics despite some being well under 12 months old and others spending a total of 12 months in repair on up to 4 previous occasions. In 2012 all these optics were unavailable for a period of almost 6 months when they were finally successfully recalibrated for the M9 and returned in 2013. The M9 subsequently failed 4 images into the next assignment in Paris and could not be repaired after several months.(broken sensor) Despite the protracted period of downtime of the total system there has been no offer of compensation by Leica Australia nor any formal communication with their direct employes or directorship. It is apparent that any form of customer service is absent. I do not believe this to be an isolated incident and I believe Leica Australia's operation breaches the fair trading acts in the various states because it does not make it clear at the time of purchase that a new M240 may be incompatible with Leica optics that worked previously on previously M hardware and this may result in a photographers entire investment and business being suspended for protected periods up to 6 months becuase most repairs cannot be carried out in country. I would be interested to know the circumstances of any similar incidents, in particular ones that feature attempts by Leica to charge for rangefinder adjustment on new Leica hardware, in particular where the lens is under warrenty at the time of failure or where there has been previous recalibration but no warrenty extension due to the duration of this action. For those professional photographers reading this post I could not advise the use of any type of Leica Australia purchased hardware until there has been a vast improvement in customer service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malvolio Posted February 22, 2014 Share #27 Posted February 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Everyone's experience re service will inevitably be different. I had an issue with a brand new 28 Cron. The first two new examples were way out of spec (back focussing) and to be fair to Leica Australia, they happily arranged for a third (which was perfect) no questions asked. I was impressed at how quickly they wanted to resolve the issue. It seems that they are being overwhelmed with replacement sensor issues on the M9/ME and the new M is now appearing with levels of greater supply. This may explain the delays etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2014 Share #28 Posted February 22, 2014 . The M9 subsequently failed 4 images into the next assignment in Paris and could not be repaired after several months.(broken sensor) That is quite amazing as the cracked sensor issue is well known and has been resolved (mostly speedily) by Leica by a guaranty sensor replacement in all other known cases. If you were in Paris you should have contacted Leica Solms and I am 100% convinced they would have had a loaner in your hands within 48 hours, as they always do in such cases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GicleeM Posted February 22, 2014 Share #29 Posted February 22, 2014 The issue of the cracked sensor is slightly off topic. The original post is about the length of time Leica service takes in Australia and the very poor customer service Leica owners must endure in this country As an aside the sensor failure happened a few blocks from the Leica store in Paris and the M9 was taken there within 30 minutes of the failure. After about 10 minutes of effort with the machine the only remedy given was purchase of a new ME or return of the M9 to Australia!. There was no option of return to germany, you must follow the process. As the light was failing I went back and got a D800E and the resultant 1.5 by 1 metre image graced our stand at the Australian Art and Framing show the next month. By the way the new sensors are only just getting to Australia now. The selling dealer for the M9 informed me last week that the machine had just returned for resale. The M240 was given to me 24 hours before I left for South America on the next trip. It failed in Chile but I operated with manual and classic exposure all the way to Antartica - the only M240 I know of that's been that far south. I could hardly hold it in a blizzard - I love that camera and want it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GicleeM Posted February 22, 2014 Share #30 Posted February 22, 2014 The issue of the cracked sensor is slightly off topic. The original post is about the length of time Leica service takes in Australia and the very poor customer service Leica owners must endure in this country As an aside the sensor failure happened a few blocks from the Leica store in Paris and the M9 was taken there within 30 minutes of the failure. After about 10 minutes of effort with the machine the only remedy given was purchase of a new ME or return of the M9 to Australia!. There was no option of return to germany, you must follow the process. As the light was failing I went back and got a D800E and the resultant 1.5 by 1 metre image graced our stand at the Australian Art and Framing show the next month. By the way the new sensors are only just getting to Australia now. The selling dealer for the M9 informed me last week that the machine had just returned for resale. The M240 was given to me 24 hours before I left for South America on the next trip. It failed in Chile but I operated with manual and classic exposure all the way to Antartica - the only M240 I know of that's been that far south. I could hardly hold it in a blizzard - I love that camera and want it back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2014 Share #31 Posted February 22, 2014 That is something completely weird. Only Solms can decide whether a camera is repairable, never a dealer. A cracked sensor is a free repair - always- and certainly not a written-off camera. Yes, we have had many complaints here about the service in Australia. It is hard to determine how much of the delay is due to shipping and customs, as most major repairs are done in Germany, including sensor replacements. Normally Leica provides loaner equipment for pros. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozkar Posted February 22, 2014 Share #32 Posted February 22, 2014 That is something completely weird. Only Solms can decide whether a camera is repairable, never a dealer. A cracked sensor is a free repair - always- and certainly not a written-off camera.Yes, we have had many complaints here about the service in Australia. It is hard to determine how much of the delay is due to shipping and customs, as most major repairs are done in Germany, including sensor replacements. Normally Leica provides loaner equipment for pros. He was dealing with the French, after all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozkar Posted February 22, 2014 Share #33 Posted February 22, 2014 Everyone's experience re service will inevitably be different. I had an issue with a brand new 28 Cron. The first two new examples were way out of spec (back focussing) and to be fair to Leica Australia, they happily arranged for a third (which was perfect) no questions asked. I was impressed at how quickly they wanted to resolve the issue. It seems that they are being overwhelmed with replacement sensor issues on the M9/ME and the new M is now appearing with levels of greater supply. This may explain the delays etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Leica service may be run off their feet replacing dud sensors, but it can not be used as an excuse for them to bypass their obligations under consumer law. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozkar Posted February 22, 2014 Share #34 Posted February 22, 2014 The issue of the cracked sensor is slightly off topic. The original post is about the length of time Leica service takes in Australia and the very poor customer service Leica owners must endure in this country As an aside the sensor failure happened a few blocks from the Leica store in Paris and the M9 was taken there within 30 minutes of the failure. After about 10 minutes of effort with the machine the only remedy given was purchase of a new ME or return of the M9 to Australia!. There was no option of return to germany, you must follow the process. As the light was failing I went back and got a D800E and the resultant 1.5 by 1 metre image graced our stand at the Australian Art and Framing show the next month. By the way the new sensors are only just getting to Australia now. The selling dealer for the M9 informed me last week that the machine had just returned for resale. The M240 was given to me 24 hours before I left for South America on the next trip. It failed in Chile but I operated with manual and classic exposure all the way to Antartica - the only M240 I know of that's been that far south. I could hardly hold it in a blizzard - I love that camera and want it back. There is no need for Leica owners to endure poor service in Australia, if they stand up for their rights. Leica users seem to be overly forgiving and willing to endure inordinately long repair times. If your camera experiences a major failure and can't be repaired within a reasonable time, demand a replacement or a full refund. If your dealer refuses, contact the ACCC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2014 Share #35 Posted February 22, 2014 He was dealing with the French, after all And a shop with an excellent reputation... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 22, 2014 Share #36 Posted February 22, 2014 That is something completely weird. Only Solms can decide whether a camera is repairable, never a dealer. A cracked sensor is a free repair - always- and certainly not a written-off camera.Yes, we have had many complaints here about the service in Australia. It is hard to determine how much of the delay is due to shipping and customs, as most major repairs are done in Germany, including sensor replacements. Normally Leica provides loaner equipment for pros. Jaap, I can make a few facts more visible on this in any case. In my opinion the forum reports often don't represent the experience for everyone here either (nor for any country for that matter I guess). The Leica Camera service situation here in Australia is by no means unique. World-wide the number of service venues is limited of course. Australia represents about 2 to 3% of Leica Camera's world-wide market and from here as from many other parts of the world, it's inevitable some some work is always going to have to be returned to the mothership. The authorised service facility is in the same city as Leica Camera Australia which must help. They certainly are not shipping to Germany every day though and Customs in both Australia and Germany can and do add to the timeframes. So do reduced activity periods around holidays in different countries. There are some thousands of kilometres of ocean in the middle as well ;-) Keep in mind too that domestically the distances can be very large (more thousands of kms). The parent company insists that all M (Typ 240) cameras needing service are returned to them currently. I can comment that the facilities to service the RF to the new standards are part of the reason. However the local authorised repair facility has increased their capabilities significantly and that includes sensor replacements for the M9 and 6 BIT coding for lenses for example. The last I heard they can service around half of the lenses they receive, depending on model and work needed. They have done some for me (Elmarit M 90 and the new Summilux 35 ASPH) Lenses like the Summilux 50 ASPH will always need a trip home though as they may need to be essentially rebuilt due to the nature of the design. They have upgraded their facilities and not least their skill sets with their technicians' training and work at being certified for more tasks. In my experience their work is first rate. Recently they indicated to me that their target to perform an assessment is 10 business days, which in my opinion is too slow. The recent work for me did take that long before shipment to Germany. While they are friendly and genuine in communication I would love to have a real premium experience there too. To be fair to them I have no idea of their workload and I may be being unrealistic there. Of course it would be nice if there was a Wetzlar facility in every country! Leica Camera Australia now has a dedicated Customer Care representative and I understand that they are working with Germany at improving the experiences from here too. I can comment that my customer feedback to Australia and Germany (after my dropped M and 50 were repaired) resulted in follow up multiple contacts and further information to me both from Germany and Australia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 23, 2014 Share #37 Posted February 23, 2014 Glad to hear this is a work in progress, Geoff. I suspected as much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozkar Posted February 23, 2014 Share #38 Posted February 23, 2014 Jaap, I can make a few facts more visible on this in any case. In my opinion the forum reports often don't represent the experience for everyone here either (nor for any country for that matter I guess). The Leica Camera service situation here in Australia is by no means unique. World-wide the number of service venues is limited of course. Australia represents about 2 to 3% of Leica Camera's world-wide market and from here as from many other parts of the world, it's inevitable some some work is always going to have to be returned to the mothership. The authorised service facility is in the same city as Leica Camera Australia which must help. They certainly are not shipping to Germany every day though and Customs in both Australia and Germany can and do add to the timeframes. So do reduced activity periods around holidays in different countries. There are some thousands of kilometres of ocean in the middle as well ;-) Keep in mind too that domestically the distances can be very large (more thousands of kms). The parent company insists that all M (Typ 240) cameras needing service are returned to them currently. I can comment that the facilities to service the RF to the new standards are part of the reason. However the local authorised repair facility has increased their capabilities significantly and that includes sensor replacements for the M9 and 6 BIT coding for lenses for example. The last I heard they can service around half of the lenses they receive, depending on model and work needed. They have done some for me (Elmarit M 90 and the new Summilux 35 ASPH) Lenses like the Summilux 50 ASPH will always need a trip home though as they may need to be essentially rebuilt due to the nature of the design. They have upgraded their facilities and not least their skill sets with their technicians' training and work at being certified for more tasks. In my experience their work is first rate. Recently they indicated to me that their target to perform an assessment is 10 business days, which in my opinion is too slow. The recent work for me did take that long before shipment to Germany. While they are friendly and genuine in communication I would love to have a real premium experience there too. To be fair to them I have no idea of their workload and I may be being unrealistic there. Of course it would be nice if there was a Wetzlar facility in every country! Leica Camera Australia now has a dedicated Customer Care representative and I understand that they are working with Germany at improving the experiences from here too. I can comment that my customer feedback to Australia and Germany (after my dropped M and 50 were repaired) resulted in follow up multiple contacts and further information to me both from Germany and Australia. If the OP had been quoted 10 days to resolve the fault with his M240 we wouldn't be having this conversation. He has been quoted 10 weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 23, 2014 Share #39 Posted February 23, 2014 Hi Geoff, about 18 months ago I sent my new Zeiss 1.5/50 C-Sonnar for focus recalibration to f1.5 under warranty. I mailed it myself to Zeiss in Germany after very efficient email communication with Zeiss Germany and got clear instructions regarding the process. I had the lens back from Zeiss eleven days later - three days transit to Germany, five days in Zeiss service, three days transit back to Sydney. Now that is the level of service I expect from Leica! Leica still have a lot to do to improve the whole service process for Australia - this is not necessarily a criticism of any one component of the repair/service chain, nor to say that much servicing here is not done within a reasonable timeframe and to a high quality. Many of Camera Clinic's problems are not of their own making but because they are dependent upon Leica Germany. More recent examples: I will now wait ages for a 6-bit coded flange for my 75 Summilux as Germany are out of parts so I had Camera Clinic return the lens to me. I had to wait six months for a replacement part to repair the baseplate lock on my Monochrom (fortunatley still useable in the meantime). Germany serviced and 6-bit coded my 28-50 MATE and stuffed up the CLA so its back in Germany - when the focal length ring is adjusted the aperture shifts and the focus ring is so stiff it's almost unusable! In the past six months I've only had the MATE for 2 weeks! Camera Clinic and Leica Australia are trying hard to expedite the re-repair especially after I had a big tantrum (and I mean BIG ). We have discussed this before as we have each had our fair share of problems in recent years. We are simply stating a fact that for an expensive item the overall level of support in Australia is grossly inadequate. Can you imaging anyone with a top end car nowadays accepting that their car off the road for months at a time for parts and repairs? Extending the motor vehicle analogy, buying a Mercedes or Porsche does not guarantee that there will not be problems, or that some individual units may not be absolute lemons, but the company needs to be prompt and responsive to resolving problems. My experience here is that individuals components here (dealers, Camera Clinic, and even Leica Australia) try to be very responsive to our problems (many of which should not even occur in the first place) and is probably better than even two years ago, but the whole process from Germany down is dysfunctional. Regards, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 23, 2014 Share #40 Posted February 23, 2014 If the OP had been quoted 10 days to resolve the fault with his M240 we wouldn't be having this conversation. He has been quoted 10 weeks. Exactly. For that reason he should be given a new camera and leave Leica to sort out the lemon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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