Why I cancelled and then reordered a Leica M240 - and never buying Leica again

[Leonil]

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Hi Leonil

Sorry to hear your story I had placed an order with the same company for a multifunction grip last oct and was told should only be 4 weeks or so come dec no sign of the grip. I gave up on them and ordered from Robert White in London 30 Dec and it arrived yesterday. I saved $200 on the estimated cost from Foto resel It is very difficult to get supply I tried to get my M in aux march april last year needing delivery prior to an os trip to europe in july no one could supply so I ordered it from Leicastore in Paris and picked it up on arrival along with a couple of lens. As has been stated by others it is a great camera and you should not let the experience of trying to purchase colour your thoughts on a wonderful instrument.

 

Thaknyou.

 

It has been difficult yes, not because of not getting one yet but being led on for months by this company.

 

Its really hard for me now, going forward to see value in a Leica product when I can get a Canon 5D III, a 24-70 2.8, a 16-35 2.8 and a set of accessories for the same price and I know Canon will reach out and offer to take care of me directly - happened when I bought a 7D and 4 lenses in one hit and Canon offered to help service all my gear just in case something went wrong. I mean, that's the kind of service I expect - not:

Dealer: I don't know, we are at the Mercy of Germany

Sales Rep: I have no idea about when and what kinds of shipments I get

Leica Australia when I wrote a letter and posted it: Silence

 

This experience has clouded my view of Leica forever. Its a great product. But it comes with a very expensive bad taste.

 

I will still love the product, don't get me wrong - but I will find little joy when it finally arrives.

[rirakuma]

I'm surprised they took this up with you publicly on facebook which I think is counterproductive on their part. I understand if they need to EFT you the money back but it sounds like they've decided to be rude when they realise you will no longer be buying from them. Like others have said, it sounds like you are unhappy with the treatment from Foto Riesel I don't think it would be fair to think negatively of Leica. I don't think Foto Riesel was lying about supply issues as my dealer told me similar things when I was waiting for mine but they were never rude to me and was more than ready to offer the refund since my order went past the ETA. Hope you can get your M soon

[earleygallery]

On the general issue of deposits or even worse, paying up front for goods, you need to remember that you're handing your money to a private company without any security. Should they go bust or close up before you get the goods, you could lose everything.

 

This happened to quite a few people in the UK when Jacobs and Jessops both went into administration. I remember reading that one guy had paid Jacobs up front in cash for a Noctilux!

 

If you are going to pay up front for goods that are on order, make sure it's by credit card as you then have redress through the card company.

[hoppyman]

I can't (and wouldn't) comment on any conversations between Leo and any dealer.

As far as the actual supply, it is true that Leica Camera Australia are uncertain of exact delivery dates and quantities of new shipments and of course that means the dealers are then too. We are at the end of a long supply chain and represent something like 2% of the customer base from memory.

When stock arrives insufficient to fill every order (as seems still very likely) it is shared across the dealers and Boutiques would expect to get some priority I imagine.. They have higher stocking requirements as part of their agreements.

 

Where you are on anyone's list is the major factor as always. That is not to say that customer service and relationships with the dealer and the price are not important. Those are personal decisions of course.

 

I was a bit astonished actually when someone in this thread quoted the current list price now at AUD9200. Several dealers were quoting (if not always advertising) around AUD 8000 early on (and prior the last price increases).

 

I think that its a very bad time of the year to expect to rely on exact delivery dates when volumes prior Christmas are obviously up and many businesses (including Customs) have reduced staffing/activity too.

 

My repaired camera (I dropped it) was listed 'shipping in progress' on 12 Dec. I was advised it had returned to Australia on 6 January.

[Leonil]

I can't (and wouldn't) comment on any conversations between Leo and any dealer.

As far as the actual supply, it is true that Leica Camera Australia are uncertain of exact delivery dates and quantities of new shipments and of course that means the dealers are then too. We are at the end of a long supply chain and represent something like 2% of the customer base from memory.

When stock arrives insufficient to fill every order (as seems still very likely) it is shared across the dealers and Boutiques would expect to get some priority I imagine.. They have higher stocking requirements as part of their agreements.

 

Where you are on anyone's list is the major factor as always. That is not to say that customer service and relationships with the dealer and the price are not important. Those are personal decisions of course.

 

I was a bit astonished actually when someone in this thread quoted the current list price now at AUD9200. Several dealers were quoting (if not always advertising) around AUD 8000 early on (and prior the last price increases).

 

I think that its a very bad time of the year to expect to rely on exact delivery dates when volumes prior Christmas are obviously up and many businesses (including Customs) have reduced staffing/activity too.

 

My repaired camera (I dropped it) was listed 'shipping in progress' on 12 Dec. I was advised it had returned to Australia on 6 January.

 

Im in total agreement about unknown delivery times. But to be told for months it will be a 6-7 month window (November and December) then as the months got closer they kept telling me "definitely next month" then when they acknowledged I wouldn't see one until after xmas, but before new years, they said "we will take care of you" and then in January they said DEFINITELY this month, well, I had enough.

[MarkP]

Leonil,

 

I'v sent you a pm

 

Regards,

Mark

[hossain]

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I have to say I am rather surprised with this entire issue, about which I commented on another thread.

 

My dealing with Foto Riesel started when I sent them an email on 27/04/2013. This was only an enquiry from a first time customer as I was interested in getting a Leica M (typ 240) Chrome. They replied back promptly (on a Saturday) and placed me straightaway on their waiting list (without a deposit). I was given the option to pay the $1000 deposit later when I am back in the city – which I thought was nice, given that they don’t know me.

 

I was then invited by the owner to attend their “Meet Leica M” event to get a “look & feel” of the new camera. I attended the event, which was well organised. I wanted to pay the deposit on that night, but because it was very busy, I didn’t want to bother the owner). I went to the store next day and paid $1000 just to make sure I am definitely on the list (a new staff served me and said – “ah you are already on the list”). Again, I thought that was nice of them. I was given a number in the queue for the M Chrome.

 

From April to December (I received my M on 17/12/2013), I sent them about 5 emails checking up the progress – and each time received a prompt response. In August, I was contacted by the dealer and was asked whether I would be interested in a Black M as it seems that they are receiving more blacks than Chrome. I respectfully declined the kind offer, as I was happy to wait. I understand the global crisis of M shortage, particularly in Australia given such a small market. There are pro-shooters all over the world who are waiting for their M, I thought, who am I? I will get it when I am meant to get it.

 

I contacted the dealer in November asking them what’s the likelihood of me getting the camera by Christmas. I just needed the saved money to use on something else. The dealer responded by saying that there is an 80% chance of me getting the M by Christmas, but if I am in hardship they are happy to refund the deposit money, no problem. I decided to keep the order with them and received my M on 17/12/2013. A week before my M arrived in Sydney, the dealer emailed me with the good news and at that time I also ordered a 50 Lux Chrome – which I received at the same time with my M. (I paid $8500 for the M as there was no "End of year Sale" happening when mine's arrived. I envy the OP for getting the $8000 deal.)

 

Anyway, overall, I was very impressed with Foto Riesel's service, courtesy and regular communication. I understand the OP's experience with the dealer have been rather different, about which I don’t know enough information/ facts to comment.

[jaapv]

but I will find little joy when it finally arrives.

 

That part I seriously doubt.

[Leonil]

Anyway, overall, I was very impressed with Foto Riesel's service, courtesy and regular communication. I understand the OP's experience with the dealer have been rather different, about which I don’t know enough information/ facts to comment.

 

Im glad you have had a good experience. I did too - until they told me in November that I would "definitely see a silver M by xmas."

 

I called a week before xmas and was told that the shipment before xmas that arrived had one silver M, so I would get mine after xmas. I waited until Jan 6 to ask again.

 

They told me definitely in January - now.... after being told in Oct, Nov, Dec it would definitely be in the next month, that was disheartening after 3 definites - I was already upset that I let 3 silver M offers from overseas slip by for a similar price point.

 

It was only until I posted my frustration on this forum and why I thought - that's it, Leica isn't for me, this is just plain ridiculous... Lo and Behold Im publicy attacked by the Store's facebook page which I have screen shotted and have sent to Leica Australia.

 

NEVER, and NEVER have I ever seen a professional company go after a customer who have had criticisms about the experience. I repeat, they specifically wrote a message directly at me on facebook and then DELETED MY POSTS to remove context of who they were attacking. (My forum name and real name are the same.)

 

I have worked as a top salesperson for chain stores and for specialist boutiques, and even if a customer is wrong, you work it out with a phonecall, or at the least an email... You don't lambast them, attack them and refer slightly to character and make snide remarks about the situation about a customer ever. WHO DOES THAT? Foto Riesal claims to be "Sydney's best camera store" I was reffered to them by Leica Australia, I was told to check them out for price...

 

But you know where I got the best service in all of this - the store I found stock of the camera I want... An old man, with 1 employee, in a country town, almost middle of nowhere, with paint peeling off the walls... He basically did more to make me feel like a customer that mattered than Foto Riesel. He even did the paperwork for me just in case I was still going on that flight to France I will be taking in a few weeks (which I had to delay for Foto Riesel.)

 

I have NEVER been told over the phone "yea whatever mate" (an Aussie sarcasm of "I don't believe you") when I told Foto Riesel I want a refund, I found a better price and a camera in stock. WHO DOES THAT to a customer?

 

I have now written a letter to Germany, and to Leica Australia - I received a call from Leica Australia assuring me that if I cant get the camera in stock at the new store, in the February shipment, the General Manager will ensure that store gets at LEAST one silver M just for me. Gave me his number to call just in case the store decides to sell to someone else.

 

Foto Riesel has not apologised for the personal attack on facebook. I think my criticisms of their store was sound and fair - but to be attacked for it... wow... I will only be on speaking terms with them if they apologise - to date they have not reached out to me since the refund.

 

They even left a snide remark on the refund note that says "Our refund policy is outlined below. In this case we will attempt to refund you as quickly as possible" I read the policy. The line that applies to my situation is "Foto Riesel does not refund for incorrect choice" Basically, I was told, because its you, we will refund even if we don't want to.

 

To the very end, they do not think kindly to me as a customer. They were rude, snide, unfair in their allegations about my conduct and unapologetic.

 

Leica on the other hand has said they have expressed how upset they were with them. They have taken my side, and while I have in fairness been very frustrated and it shows in my OP, I still hold true to the fact I was told "definitely next month" several times.

 

I will let you all know when/if I get a camera in January, or February.

 

In the meantime, someone who was behind me will be getting a Leica this month before me - I happily wait a few weeks or a month to get mine on the principal. I have asked Leica to never let this happen again to someone. Im sure Foto Riesel is a great company, but I have not experienced anything great AT ALL. Nothing but treating me like a free sale (I never met them) and then Im being lambasted online when criticised. I refuse to let them have a cent of my money until I see an apology from them.

 

Leo

[Leonil]

That part I seriously doubt.

 

I have never held an M240 - But Ive used an M3, an M7 and an M9.

 

I also have held a 5D mk3 with a 24-70mm 2.8 and even though Im a canon user and love the 5D... I can tell you all that I love about the camera and how useful it will be for my studio.

 

There is something about an M I cant put into words as to why I love it more.

 

I have my fingers crossed this experience hasn't bittered my taste for M. Cause a new Canon FF kit with L lenses for the same price looks pretty damn sweet right now.

 

Leo

[hoppyman]

It's unpleasant reading the frustration and antagonism between Leo and Foto Riesel both here and on Facebook. Pretty clearly they won't have any future relationship by mutual choice.

 

The whole issue seems to come down to what Leo insists were promised delivery times which Foto Riesel denies. Then I think fair to say rising friction and irritation.

 

To be fair the company has no right of reply here so that we can only read one side. On the FB site is visible the response to whatever was deleted and a negative recommendation which has been left standing. They do detail what their responses have been there.

 

But the outcome is that Leo has given up his place in the queue where he was first for the next silver and except for the personal intervention of the head of Leica here that would have meant at least further delay. Presumably also it means that the discounted price paid in advance in full will also be missed. Whatever is paid is personal business only though.

 

Since that personal intervention was publicly mentioned, I think it's important to add that the net result will be supply of the same individual camera at the same time by a different dealer so that no-one else who is queued will be disadvantaged. Were I in that queue I would be rightly annoyed otherwise.

 

My own experience with Leica Camera Australia has been uniformly positive and in fact they have been extraordinarily helpful and friendly. At the same time they very properly are 100% fair in allocation of stock in my experience. I queued first at one dealer then tried two others, all of which are no longer authorised Leica M dealers, before finding a new dealer where I was number two. I got their second supplied (last June).

[Leonil]

The whole issue seems to come down to what Leo insists were promised delivery times which Foto Riesel denies. Then I think fair to say rising friction and irritation.

 

To be fair, My main gripe was being told that Id be getting one before xmas, and then they said when it was too late that they would take care of me.

 

That's when I made the post to express my frustration. Id rather just be told, you WONT get it next month, wait till January - they gave me a definite date by saying xmas.

 

My rising irritation and my need to escalate my complaint came from the facebook post which I will not post as I feel that is taking it too far, but have sent a screen of it to Leica Australia. the GM has since formally expressed his displeasure that a licenced dealer has acted in a way.

 

My refusal to shop or deal with Foto Riesel as I said, was only conditional upon an apology - not for the "you will get one next month" or "before xmas" that, I feel is, in my opinion fair enough as we ALL have to wait, but frustrating - hence my OP. My real displeasure is the facebook post, the personal reference attack, and the deletion of my reply as I tried to defend myself, now with my reply gone, the post paints me in a horrible light in public to their customers - which is why I wrote a letter to Leica.

 

I will shop there, and I have been civil to them, but only when I see some kind of apology for their public action against, what I feel, legitimate customer feedback and criticism. If they don't like that, they should have asked me in an email or phone call as to why I felt that. Not post angrily on facebook and refer to me directly. The out of context comment they have still sits uncontextualised on their facebook page.

[arvin]

Holy crap!!!

 

I am also from Australia and was shopping around to buy a Leica M in Aug 2013.

After my research, Foto Riesal does offer "good" price. However, their customer service wasn't great and in my definition, it was shit. they made up the number of people waiting, how Leica has increased the costs, how the Aussie dollar effects the prices and balanala......

The so called professional sales person at Foto Riesal just did not have enough patient in answering all my questions and it was demonstrated from his tone.

 

Luckily I placed my order with Paxton Camera, city shop, Sydney.

Abi or Abby was the guy who served me. He was very detailed and professional.

Their price was also much better than Foto Riesal's, $7999 for a black M, for real, and did not change due to some builshxt stories here or there.

 

I placed the order for a black M and a 35mm F1.4 back in Aug.

I was told that there's about the 5 - 6 months wait time initially. I paid 10% deposit for it.

Paxton actually have the lens in stock but was still willing to put it aside for me without me paying any additional fees! Waited five months, I then received the camera just before X'mas. During this period, I have contacted Abby several times and he's always cheerful in talking to me and always reminded me that if I can find and buy the M somewhere else, they can either match the price or refund me the deposit, no question ask.

 

Currently, I am having this issue with the sensor. See another post of mine.

Called Paton and speak to the store manager. So far it's very pleasant dealing with Michael, the store manager and I should see my replacement this month.

 

I felt that I am not just another customer buying a camera from them, but a friend who was looked after well.

 

Oh did I mention the gift I received from them? Abby threw in a filter for free, plus they gave me 500 6*4 prints and opportunity to attend a camera course for free with them.

 

Where will I shop again? Surely I will not think anywhere else, but Paxton.

 

BTW, Leo, you should still buy Leica, just not from foto. It's totally not Leica's fault, but foto Riesal's.

Also, my experience with Foto Riesal's was my personal experience and feeling towards the service I'd received.

Perhaps they just didn't need my business.

 

PS: apology for my English!

[Leonil]

Where will I shop again? Surely I will not think anywhere else, but Paxton.

 

BTW, Leo, you should still buy Leica, just not from foto. It's totally not Leica's fault, but foto Riesal's.

Also, my experience with Foto Riesal's was my personal experience and feeling towards the service I'd received.

Perhaps they just didn't need my business.

 

PS: apology for my English!

 

Hey thanks man. I haven't blamed Leica, but it has been a bitter pill to stick to my principals and step out of the queue and get my money refunded.

 

Leica has indeed guaranteed my place in the queue. When I told them that I remade my order for a Silver Leica M I sourced from another store that had already fulfilled its orders, Leica GM said that if it fails, he will ensure the next Leica batch will have a Silver in it for that store, so I don't lose my spot in the queue (even if I will receive my camera a few weeks later than if I waited with Foto Riesel. Again, its the principal of the thing. I only complained about inconsistent customer service but was happy to shop with them... Until their public facebook attack, then all bets were off.

 

I was going to shop Paxtons, but obviously, Foto Riesel said their prices were the best, and to stay with them. How much of a lie that was. When I was calling up stores 2 weeks ago when I was considering jumping ship, the prices in 5 stores were still at $8000 and Foto Riesel was saying RRP was $9000. I wish I went with Paxtons in the beginning - They have always been good to me when I first bought my Olympus gear.

 

But, Camera House is just good enough to me. They started off as a small business like Paxtons and are struggling like other camera stores to stay viable, and to be honest, I'll support them because their Customer service is consistent. Most of all, if you have a complaint and express it on an online forum, they will either email or call you, not lambast you on facebook, taking your credibility down a notch.

 

Im glad you got the camera you need and wanted. Here's hoping I get my refund. They said they would organise it Thursday, I got the receipt of refund, Friday - so heres hoping I get mine sometime today or tomorrow so I don't disappoint the store that's currently holding my Silver Leica, sitting on their shelves.

[Leonil]

UPDATE:

 

So its been 6 working days, 8 days total, and haven't gotten my money back yet. Store is either dragging its feet or the bank is.

 

In the mean time, the other store waits patiently for me, but now the camera is in limbo - all they need is a customer to walk in and buy it.

 

I gave the new store a small deposit, as the suggestion of the Leica Australia GM, but it doesn't quantify that the camera is held in my name. to my surprise, the man at the new store has just been holding it for me, just because, and happens to have received the best praise from Leica Australia as one of the most reliable stores.

 

I have my fingers crossed the camera is still there when my refund gets processed. Because it shouldn't take this long to get my money back, the only explanation is that they are seriously dragging their feet in doing so.

 

Leo

[Leonil]

So just got off the phone with them. They have had more yhan a week, but foto riesel hasnt even lifted a finger yet to refund me. They said they will do it tomorrow.

 

I wonder if they would have if I didnt even call

 

Called fairtrading.com.au and their advice was to write a letter of demand giving them 24 hours to refund me. If not, I have to raise an official complaint with fairtrading.com.au.

[strae]

To share my personal experience, I put in an order for Typ 240 with Leica Mayfair. They made me no promises on time and price but also took no deposit.

 

They simply made it clear that this was a product that was still in production and that there were no guarantees.

 

When the camera arrived some 11 months after my expression of interest, they called me and gave me 2 weeks to come in and view it. Once I viewed it, they gave me a further 2 weeks to consider it - no pressure at all. I ended up purchasing the camera there and then, but the point was that the whole experience was very good from my perspective with the exception of the initial wait.

 

Good things are hard to make, and a good experience is even harder to create. Leica is not a large scale, mass market consumer product company (at least not yet). While I was disappointed to have waited 11 months, I was very satisfied with my experience of purchasing the camera. Goes without saying that using the camera has been an unmitigated joy. It's not perfect, but the imperfections are part of the charm and the mystique.

 

There are lots of great private dealers out there but equally there are some less great ones. Sounds like you definitely had a bad experience with a dealer, but I think a little unfair to blame Leica.

 

It's not possible to buy from Leica directly in all locations, but in my humble opinion, it is the best way to proceed if you can.

 

NB: I bought my first Leica (an M8) from a dealer in Hong Kong. And that was a great experience too. Your mileage may vary...

[Leonil]

There are lots of great private dealers out there but equally there are some less great ones. Sounds like you definitely had a bad experience with a dealer, but I think a little unfair to blame Leica.

 

Oh I never blamed Leica. As a first time buyer, I never expected any company let alone Leica to have a dealer leave a complaint about my review of them on Facebook. I expect mpre from retail stores, I expect much more from a store touting itself as the cheapest leica Boutique in sydney and the best camera store in sydney. I expect even more from a dealer holding my money, the amount it is.

 

What my whole saga has taught me is Leica and their customer sercice is legendary... I just havent seen it yet. I did get an apology from the Leica boss but not from the dealer. And I thought that was unfair leica had to reach out to me in order to keep egg off its face.

 

As i said before, I still want my camera, Leica has made it clear that while I left the queue as a matter of principal (I was litterally next in the queue) leica has ensured me that if I cant secure the silver m thats at another store, that store will recive a silver one so I dont have to line up again because of bad service from a dealer. I just dont feel this experience wss worth the 6-7 years of saving. I just dont want to have to go through the humiliation Foto Riesel has put me through. Even the Leica GM was openly embarrassed about my situation. Albeit a small problem to begin with, but who goes after a customer on facebook?

[IkarusJohn]

He's not blaming Leica.

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[yes modo]

I'm late to this thread however sad to read your experience with FotoRiesel. Not sure if it helps with any Leica purchase you make in the future, but I recommend Vanbar. Picked up my M-E back in Feb 2013 for $5049. That was after an eternity researching prices domestic and overseas. To my surprise, Vanbar had the cheapest sticker price anywhere at the time. Unheard of for an Australia retailer to have the best price as I'm sure anyone in Australia will agree with. Sure, M-E was old tech back then and it was nearly a year ago but keep them in mind when you're looking to buy in future, thats all I'm trying to say.