semi-ambivalent Posted December 14, 2013 Share #61 Posted December 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Remember those days? Ha! I laughed so hard I dropped a cassette of Tri-X on the cat's head... s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 14, 2013 Posted December 14, 2013 Hi semi-ambivalent, Take a look here M Color. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Delcredere Posted December 14, 2013 Share #62 Posted December 14, 2013 You miss the point soooo completely. Who cares about the details of Adan's analogy. The point is that you have to profile any camera. And watch for the effects of blue adding to red and getting magenta under tungsten light. Yellow has to be corrected if, you want to get close to correct color... or just leave everything alone and let the image have that nice warm yellow tint. In the case of the M240 and LR profile, the red is over saturated and the primary must be increased in Hue if, you ever want correct color. That is just a start. Chris, tries to show what I guess he thinks are examples of good color and the faithful just push the thanks button. But, the artificial lighting he continually posts as good color are confusing for anyone trying to learn color correction. Adan provided the best profile for my M9 and I used it for years and tweaked the color from there and then learned how to make my own profiles from there. I'd sure like it if he had a M240 so he could give some general profile information. I know he could help me get even closer. Thanks for your post Adan. Ahem. I confess to pressing the Thanks button for both Chris and Rick because I am grateful to have learnt, or been challenged by knowledgeable people to think about, something I did not know much about - not demonstrate fidelity:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 14, 2013 Author Share #63 Posted December 14, 2013 In other words, "reds need to be corrected towards cold colors as much as whites" is exactly what is NOT true. They need LESS correction (but that is not what happens, thus we end up with magenta reds). Adan, Perfect. And, of course the color from daylight to tungsten is an infinite combination and not a duality. So, the Adobe dual-illuminance can not be pleasing for every situation no matter how good the algorithm is. To some degree the red primary needs to be changed for varying color temperature of each situation. And, this just a discussion of one primary. All three interact with the WB Color and Tint corrections. For what it is worth, I like your analogy. And, thanks again for sharing your M9 profile years ago and explaining this back then. Still learning. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MirekE Posted December 14, 2013 Share #64 Posted December 14, 2013 Red and yellow objects do not reflect blue light (it is why they appear red or yellow). Use a light source that does not contain blue light (i.e. yellow light) - and such objects will still reflect essentially the same energies and wavelengths as if it were white light. The missing blue light does not affect their color, since they would not reflect it even if it was present. If it were present, they would absorb it (and appear red or yellow) and if it is not present, nothing happens (and they appear red or yellow). So they will not be "too warm", for the most part. And where they are too warm, the extra warmth is much less - proportionally - than the extra warmth that appears in white, neutral or blue-through-cyan objects. In other words, "reds need to be corrected towards cold colors as much as whites" is exactly what is NOT true. They need LESS correction (but that is not what happens, thus we end up with magenta reds). ... I guess I should have been more precise and say "as well as" instead of "as much as". If I understand your explanation correctly, you assume that the white balance adds an equal amount of blue (or cooling of some sort) to each pixel. I don't think this is the case, at least not when doing WB in raw. I believe in Adobe raw converters the calculations are more sophisticated, involving LMS color space and chromatic adaptation. So the color shifts of each pixel should be calculated correctly and even account for human perception already. They say seeing is believing, so i will do some tests to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MirekE Posted December 14, 2013 Share #65 Posted December 14, 2013 And, of course the color from daylight to tungsten is an infinite combination and not a duality. So, the Adobe dual-illuminance can not be pleasing for every situation no matter how good the algorithm is. Why are the Sony images pleasing SOOC, then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 14, 2013 Author Share #66 Posted December 14, 2013 Why are the Sony images pleasing SOOC, then? I am not sure. But, I suspect that it easier for Sony to control IR and therefore they don't have to use a "work around" for the IR. Also, the Sony isn't always more pleasing. Often, the M color with profile looks better to me than the Sony RX1 and it is the Sony that needs PP adjustment. None are turn-key. I believe that the M cameras with there thinner IR filter renders skin tone under some light with a redish look from the IR. The workaround is to shift the primary Red color upward. This allows the blue WB to be moved to a pleasing point without as much magenta skin tone. The result is pretty darn close to where the RX1 is OOC. Again, the M color is fine, but under some lighting conditions this can help tame "red-nose." I find that desaturating red also helps (in the Primary Red). I have also suggestions for the Blue primary which sometimes needs a decrease in the Blue Primary and also desaturates a little. These settings for AWB sunny daylight almost always are around 4850/-11 on the WB as a starting point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MirekE Posted December 14, 2013 Share #67 Posted December 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) As I understand, one of the factors that impacts color (and need for specific type of corrections in profiles) is spectral characteristic and density of filters in the CFA. With density and peak absorption frequencies relative to sensitivity of cones in human eye, the manufacturer can slightly manipulate low light performance, color separation capability and metamerism. It is likely that the CFA differs between the Sony, M240 and M9, so different corrections are likely needed in profiles and the sensors may have different strong and weak points. Possibly the Sony is more closely mimicking human eye cones spectral response? I think the IR contamination may be confirmed by somebody who has IR cut filter and can try shooting skin in light containing IR with and without the filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted December 15, 2013 Share #68 Posted December 15, 2013 An interesting discussion with most useful information, thanks! How does an IR Cut filter affect the red issue as discussed? ...As the filter reflects some visible red along with the IR, letting blue and green pass through. Is this a solution to better color, particularly in "warm light"? Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 15, 2013 Share #69 Posted December 15, 2013 Not really, the cutoff of IR filters is rather steep and does not affect “normal” red. The only sensible solution is to make a camera profile, which, fortunately, is rather simple in both the XRite and Adobe software. The main problem with the M reds is the tendency of the camera to clip the red channel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted December 15, 2013 Share #70 Posted December 15, 2013 Not really, the cutoff of IR filters is rather steep and does not affect “normal” red. The only sensible solution is to make a camera profile, which, fortunately, is rather simple in both the XRite and Adobe software. The main problem with the M reds is the tendency of the camera to clip the red channel. Yup .... this was discussed in beta testing ..... if you avoid overexposure of reds you get a perfectly normal colour balance .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MirekE Posted December 16, 2013 Share #71 Posted December 16, 2013 Not really, the cutoff of IR filters is rather steep and does not affect “normal” red. The only sensible solution is to make a camera profile, which, fortunately, is rather simple in both the XRite and Adobe software. The main problem with the M reds is the tendency of the camera to clip the red channel. Do you have any examples or tips for types of images where red clipping would be a problem? I looked at some lightbulb lit images and wild sunsets in Rawdigger and the reds are not clipped. Here is an extreme, but the camera managed not to overexpose it. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2013 Share #72 Posted December 17, 2013 The only tip is - use your RGB histogram. Once you clipped a colour channel, you are in for a postprocessing struggle.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 17, 2013 Share #73 Posted December 17, 2013 Do you have any examples or tips for types of images where red clipping would be a problem?... Yes don't follow the expose-to-the-right mantra or forget histograms and expose like you did with transparencies. Choosing spot metering for red flowers may help as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
molto1 Posted December 17, 2013 Share #74 Posted December 17, 2013 I just ordered the Colorcheck Passport x rite. Does it allso work with aparture ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 17, 2013 Share #75 Posted December 17, 2013 I rather doubt it (but will happily defer to expert opinion) - Aperture has a rather convoluted passage in its manual. Just use Lightroom that came with your camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted December 17, 2013 Share #76 Posted December 17, 2013 Choosing spot metering for red flowers may help as well. ....... mandatory .... and be prepared to underexpose by a stop or so..... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/218220-m-color/?do=findComment&comment=2488975'>More sharing options...
mirekti Posted December 17, 2013 Share #77 Posted December 17, 2013 Here are my samples Not sure how much I should have underexpose it here. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/218220-m-color/?do=findComment&comment=2489145'>More sharing options...
mirekti Posted December 18, 2013 Share #78 Posted December 18, 2013 I posted this in another sub forum, but it might be of interest for users following this thread. X Rite Color Checker for $59. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/313582-x-rite-color-checker-passport.html#post2583250 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share #79 Posted December 18, 2013 I see a substantial amount of window-foil smearing in the corner of the window reflection that can be clearly seen in the reflection of the lamp. Ruins it for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirekti Posted December 30, 2013 Share #80 Posted December 30, 2013 After I bought a color checker, and created a custom profile I must say the colors look better. However, it wasn't as simple as creating a profile only. I also noticed Adobe's DNG Profile Editor created a different profile than the X-Rite's Color checker using the same color checker photo as a reference. I thought Adobe's should be better, but actually it was the X-Rite's one. For example, I have a stroller in a funky orange, and following three photos represent the way camera sometimes renders the color. One part of the stroller is lit by sun, and the other is in it's shade. The photos are cropped, but nothig was changed except: The first one is using Adobe Standard profile. The second one is custom profile created by using a color checker, and X-Rite software. The third one is custom profile using a color checker, and my custom settings of red hue +15, magenta hue +65, and luminance red -5. The last photo is pretty much the way it should look like. I understand that color temperature will change the color's hue, but should it shift it from orange to pink? Is this a problem with the raw engine or the firmware? I mean, the colors should be correct out of the color checker, but what I this is either firmware or raw engine is messing with it a bit. In the second set the stroller was again in the sun and in the shade, but the shift was not so strong. The third set represents a red car in the shade, and this is why I moved magenta's hue so much. Look how the side of the car is red, but the back is magenta. Why it renders it like this, and shifts the hue so much I don't have a clue. I would only expect that it should decrease the luminance, and maybe shift a hue a little bit. The last set represents color checker with the same settings as described above. All in all, my colors look much better now, but... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/218220-m-color/?do=findComment&comment=2498205'>More sharing options...
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