focus peaking on M240- Next to useless wide open?

[jaques]

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Is it possible that there is variation in the strength of focus peaking from M to M camera? Or (as I suspect) is the feature very subtle, and weak- on the M240- as to be next to useless for focusing soft ultra wide lenses?

 

I ask because yesterday I had my first chance to test out peaking using a vintage 75mm Zeiss Biotar .1.4 lens. For me- the ability to use peaking with vintage lenses like this (and the noct v1) was one of the main reasons I was interested in the M upgrade.

 

Unfortunately I soon found that the peaking feature was so subtle as to be completely invisible with this lens wide open- even at magnification. I thought the feature was not working at all. After some trials I only detected very faint red highlights when stopping the lens down past f4.

 

Having been informed that vintage lens designs like the Biotar do not perform well with M peaking- I determined to try my just serviced V1 Noctilux. I am sad to say: wide open at f1- the peaking is so subtle as to be virtually invisible wide open at f1 even under magnification. Magnified It shows up after f2.8.

 

To me this is a real shame- as it is exactly these types of fast lenses that can be tricky to focus via RF (impossible for the Biotar)- that I think benefit from the ability to employ focus peaking when desired. I may say: o well it is the state of the art... however I couldn't help noticing the infinte difference between the M peaking- and that of the new Sony A7- when I just watched this video. Look at the 9:25 mark to see the peaking with Noctilux lens:

 

Sony A7 vs A7R Hands-on Review

 

There is a vast WORLD of difference here, nay a UNIVERSE. The peaking on the sony looks infinitely better (except for the yellow colour, but I assume that is customizable?). You can clearly see it even from a distance on the rear LCD at 100% view- and it is easy to follow the plane of focus as it moves. It looks completely usable with fast lenses- as opposed to next to useless with the M. It also looks like it could almost act as a type of compositional/DOF aid- isolating and highlighting components of the images in the field of focus...

 

Now: I am not sure- perhaps there is a problem with peaking on my individual camera? I could post a video link showing the M in action with the f1 Noct- if someone is interested and can tell me how best to link/post a video...

 

And: would it be impossible to increase/improve the peaking system on the M through firmware upgrades? I sincerely hope so. I would like to have an option to increase the strength if that was possible.

 

the cats face here is a small crop from the Biotar at f1.4- at these settings the whiskers did not show up red at all even magnified- even up to f4.

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[Dannybuoy]

As far as I'm aware, peaking isn't that good wide open as contrast is reduced. As for older lenses, contrast is probably lower on those too. A wide open vintage lens isn't going to have great contrast. The A7 has phase and contrast detection on the sensor so it's going to be able to produce stronger peaking edges. I admit the effect could be more pronounced on the M but I guess there's more factors involved which will make it less effective.

[jaapv]

The effect is in my experience quite subtle on the M and is indeed contrast, light level and subject matter dependent. I found that it requires - like any focusing method- a bit of a learning curve, but when one is used to it it is extremely accurate. Even if the red lines as such are hardly visible or even not at all the outlines of the parts in focus are still enhanced.

 

As I understand it the camera maker can choose the contrast level at which the camera will signal “in focus”. As the contrast detection level decreases the focus peaking gets more visible but less accurate.

I found that with long lenses I could easily get an accuracy of less than 50 cm at 30 meters with a 280/4.2 lens wide open in bright light.

 

I also found that the wider the lens is the less useful focus peaking gets and the more the optical viewfinder is superior.

That is imo not a problem as the M is primarily a rangefinder camera with an auxiliary live-view EVF / feature. A full-EVF camera without a rangefinder has completely different requirements. However the magnification feature makes the EVF as such, with or without peaking, most useful in low light.

[thighslapper]

As Jaap says ...... with focus peaking you can't have everything ......

 

If anything I find the peaking on the A7r shows up over too wide a range making the perfect mid focus point hard to judge ...... particularly with the 90/0.95..... even with the settings reduced to mod or low.

 

FP on the M is designed to work with the current range of relatively high contrast M lenses. You are always going to struggle at times with old glass.

 

To be honest the magnified view is clear enough to judge focus without peaking for most situations, so I have not found it an issue....... and before FP on the M9 I didn't have any focus issues using the RF anyway....... even with the 50/0.95 and 135/3.4.

[sc_rufctr]

Just buy the Sony already

[tom0511]

I tried focus Peaking with the Nex7 and never found it great.

With the M I much prefer the rangefinder, but then lenses need to be calibrated.

Also I now use just lenses which don't suffer from focus shift.

My recommendation would be to use the rangefinder, its such a great thing for the foal length up to 50 or maybe 90 mm.

[farnz]

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… My recommendation would be to use the rangefinder, its such a great thing for the foal length up to 50 or maybe 90 mm.

Unfortunately Jaques's 75/1.5 Biotar is not rangefinder coupled so that won't work.

 

Pete

[Tonki-M]

i've tried the focus peaking on the A7r and it is better than the one on the M240. interestingly, even on the A7r, i prefer to turn off the peaking altogether, at 5x and 10x magnification, judging by eye if the focus is spot on or not seems enough for me. The plus i would give to the A7r would be the ability to move around the magnification patch, but the peaking performance is irrelevant to me.

[tom0511]

Unfortunately Jaques's 75/1.5 Biotar is not rangefinder coupled so that won't work.

 

Pete

 

I see. However there are many nice focus coupled lenses in this focal length range available.

 

I understand it sounds like a nice dream to be able to use all kind of older lenses on mirror less cameras with EVF. Howver until today it seems to be mostly lead to some handling compromises.

[farnz]

I see. However there are many nice focus coupled lenses in this focal length range available. ...

True, but pictures from the 75/1.5 Biotar have a unique 'look' that's not available from other lenses. For example, the 75/1.4 Summilux, the 73/1.9 Hektor, the 85/1.5 Summarex, and the 90/2.2 Thambar have their own unique looks but they're all quite different from the Biotar.

 

Pete.

[jaques]

well- the good news is that I can still focus the Biotar just by eye using the EVF- though it is a little slow and not so great for moving objects. Also it is a shame that the magnified patch is fixed at the center and cannot be moved around. The magnified image is also good to focus with: but not so good at all for moving objects- and I find it disorienting- especially with longer lenses.

 

It seems the answer is probably no: but does anyone think there is any hope that the peaking feature could be improved via firmware? It would be great if the user could increase/decrease the amount of peaking that is visible.

[esy0345]

I have found it works very well with the 75 lux and f1 Noctilux. While subtle, it is excellent and provides a much more accurate focus than the rangefinder which has some variabiltiy. If ONLY Leica would make an integrated EVF and combine with or eliminate the rangefinder for those that want this.

[brill64]

I find the focus peaking, when I need it, to be just about right but I use the rangefinder about 80% of the time.

[tom0511]

True, but pictures from the 75/1.5 Biotar have a unique 'look' that's not available from other lenses. For example, the 75/1.4 Summilux, the 73/1.9 Hektor, the 85/1.5 Summarex, and the 90/2.2 Thambar have their own unique looks but they're all quite different from the Biotar.

 

Pete.

 

I have no doubt it does. The question is just which handling/focusing compromises does one accept in order to be able to use the lens and get the special look.

Besides I don't like EVF because the way I see through them I also don't like the time lag when using live view on the M.

I am not arguing against using old lenses with the EVF, I just try to say that we must not believe it is as comfortable as using the original and latest lenses for a system.

[farnz]

... I just try to say that we must not believe it is as comfortable as using the original and latest lenses for a system.

I completely agree, Tom.

 

… The question is just which handling/focusing compromises does one accept in order to be able to use the lens and get the special look. ....

It's a personal choice of course. But then all of photography is a compromise to a greater or lesser extent isn't it? (For example, the compromise with the M-series used to be that you couldn't actively focus SLR lenses with it but now that compromise is gone.)

 

Pete.

[paulsydaus]

Focus peeking surely can be tweaked in firmware, so my guess is Leica can, nay should, improve on this over time. This was their first effort after all.

IMHO I tend to find the effect too subtle in many situations as well, to the point where I too questioned whether I had turned the feature off entirely (I hadn't).

In many cases I simply could not discern the peaking at all, and I have no vision issues.

However I suspect more complex adaptive peaking algorithms might require more horsepower than what the current generation Maestro can provide. This is where the Japanese have a real leg up...

If I were Leica, I'd be investing heavily in the digital systems capability right now, for the next generation M/S cameras. If you need any help, just send me a PM!

[tom0511]

Focus peeking surely can be tweaked in firmware, so my guess is Leica can, nay should, improve on this over time. This was their first effort after all.

IMHO I tend to find the effect too subtle in many situations as well, to the point where I too questioned whether I had turned the feature off entirely (I hadn't).

In many cases I simply could not discern the peaking at all, and I have no vision issues.

However I suspect more complex adaptive peaking algorithms might require more horsepower than what the current generation Maestro can provide. This is where the Japanese have a real leg up...

If I were Leica, I'd be investing heavily in the digital systems capability right now, for the next generation M/S cameras. If you need any help, just send me a PM!

 

I also would assume that most "historic" lenses do show a less sharp and less contrasty image than more modern designs. This will probably also influence the way focus peaking is working with different kind lenses.

IMO it would be good if there was a setting like "weak, middle,strong" for focus peaking.

[jaques]

I have found it works very well with the 75 lux and f1 Noctilux. While subtle, it is excellent and provides a much more accurate focus than the rangefinder which has some variabiltiy. If ONLY Leica would make an integrated EVF and combine with or eliminate the rangefinder for those that want this.

 

I am surprised to hear this- as I tested yesterday with a Noctilux f1- and at f1 I could noy see an peaking at all in most (if not all) conditions. Even at magnification. On my camera at least it was as if it was turned off. At f2.8 with magnification I could see the odd fleck of red- only at magnification.

 

Are you really sure it works great with you noct f1? Wide open?

 

If it does I am concerned mine is not working correctly. I am pretty sure it could not be the lens as it has just been serviced at Solms and is like new- they did a great job:)- sharp as a tack and focusing spot on on the RF (at long, long last!).

[Mr_Jones]

The Sony focus peaking is too wide and gives too approximate an indication in an effort to be looking busy providing the data. The M does seem very subtle though, although it works much better at 10x magnification in my experience.

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[esy0345]

I am surprised to hear this- as I tested yesterday with a Noctilux f1- and at f1 I could noy see an peaking at all in most (if not all) conditions. Even at magnification. On my camera at least it was as if it was turned off. At f2.8 with magnification I could see the odd fleck of red- only at magnification.

 

Are you really sure it works great with you noct f1? Wide open?

 

If it does I am concerned mine is not working correctly. I am pretty sure it could not be the lens as it has just been serviced at Solms and is like new- they did a great job:)- sharp as a tack and focusing spot on on the RF (at long, long last!).

 

Yes I just tried to take a pic of the screen with iPhone but it does not show up well to post. It is clear wide open at f1 at both 5x and 10x although more subtle at 10x depending on the distance.