Leica M-E as a first camera?

[Torgian]

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So there's this with a lens:

 

Leica M9 Kit 4022243107052 | eBay

 

Still under a 2 year factory warranty. But doesn't the warranty only work for the original owner? Or can it be transferred?

 

For a used M9 with a lens,t his seems like a good deal, but only has an hour left. Not gonna buy it, but if I knew if a warranty can transfer over, I may put a bid on it.

 

Anyways, still lurking and watching, and working on a decision. In the meantime, I'm still studying Japanese while watching the snow falling outside.

 

I can easily see a picture here, if I had a person on the couch across from me. I think it'd make for a nice photo.

[Torgian]

Answered my own question. Warranties do not appear to be transferable.

[Olyamk]

I was told by a local Leica dealer that the one year warranty after a factory service is transferrable. I am in Ukraine.

[jonogilmour]

So to pass the time tonight, I've been reading up on how rangefinders work, and I find it remarkably simple, as far as how focusing works. When I look at a digital camera and see how it's focused either in manual mode, I've always kind of wondered if I was truly at a near-perfect focus. With a rangefinder's secondary image, it seems to me that focusing is that much easier. In a sense.

 

Keeping in mind that I'm a beginner, I have to wonder why this type of focusing isn't more readily available. I just feel like it would be the best way to do it. I can imagine that after some time with practice, one can focus manually quite quickly.

 

It seems to me that focusing on a subject and then moving the camera away from the subject a bit (as in, left or right) would be easy to do in order to frame your subject more to the left or right of your shot, rather than directly in the center.

 

Then again, I'm just using my imagination here. Feel free to correct me.

 

Either way, reading about rangefinders is a nice way to spend the evening before bed.

 

It isn't readily available because manual focus only cameras aren't readily available. I agree, it's very easy to use.

[Torgian]

It isn't readily available because manual focus only cameras aren't readily available. I agree, it's very easy to use.

 

Which to me is insane, because I can see Nikon and Canon getting more business if they made a cheaper rangefinder camera. Look at Fuji... they made a rangefinder STYLE camera and people love it. Make it be able to do actual manual focusing, like a real rangefinder, that costs half as much as a Leica, and I can see people flocking to whoever makes it first.

 

I've been reading up on how to operate a camera manually, with ISO, Aperature and shutter speed settings. The site that I was reading mentioned how many digital cameras today have a bunch of features that make a camera more like a feature-filled photo editor in a sense. I haven't looked at many digital cameras in person, but from what the website said, many digital cameras hide the important elements of taking a photograph in their menu systems. Meanwhile, a Leica has everything available right at your fingertips.

 

Which is awesome. I don't want to have to memorize how to find my Auto/Manual mode settings or ISO settings or whatever in a menu. Or go through the rigamarole of assigning those settings onto a customizable button. I want it all there already.

 

Granted I know autofocus has its uses. And I've played around with that in other cameras, but it doesn't seem very intuitive to me to look at a screen and set where I want a focal point to be, when I can take a manual focusing camera (Leica) set the focus on the subject and shoot. Especially if I want that subject to be off to the side... it seems to me I can just focus on my subject, move the camera off to the side (say if I want my focused subject to be on the left of my picture) and shoot. Whereas if I want to do that with an autofocus digital camera, I'd have to touch an LCD screen or set the focal point with arrow controls, then have it focus and shoot.

 

I can see how auto imaging can make things easier, too... I'm going to have to learn more about light and setting proper ISO and shutter speeds and stuff in order to take good shots. And learn about contrast. Still, this seems like something easy to learn. To master? I'm sure light is something that nobody can master... nobody really knows what light really is after all.

 

I'm probably overthinking this whole process.

 

I've decided to go with the M240, if there is one available, or get an M-E if one of those becomes available before I get to Japan.

[jip]

Hello,

 

Read the whole thread and see allot of different answers!

 

As I've started with a M8, if advise that, especially since they are allot cheaper and still very good!

 

I'd say a M8 with Elmarit-M 28 ASPH or Voightlander Ultron 28 f2 or f1.9

 

This will only set you back 2300-2900 dollars total!

 

Meaning you've got plenty of money left, for traveling and other things to do in Japan. And believe me, my boy friend (Lorenzvs on the forum) bought a M8 because of me with the Elmarit-M 28mm ASPH. and a old Elmar 50mm and takes great images with it!!!

 

I now have the M240, yes it's better and yes it's better than the M9 but if I would be on a budget and knowing I would go to japan for 2 years is happily stay with the M8 and the 28 and 50 lens!!!!

 

If you want to see pics from the M8 or M9 or M240 (had 'em all) just send me a PM!

 

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[tookaphotoof]

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Torgian, your post seems more like you're just looking for excuses to justify spending all your money on a new Leica. Nothing wrong with that, but the things you say about other cameras simply aren't true.

 

Basic settings like aperture, shutter speed and iso are usually at your fingertips. 99 percent of the cameras you can choose to let it control focussing completely automatically, or choose a focus point yourself. 2 Second job to pick the center focus point on the day you get your camera and you'll never have to look at it again, if you prefer shooting that way.

 

I'm in love with both my Leica's because I like the way how it looks. It feels solid in my hands and the shutter sound it very pleasing. The focussing feels smooth.

I'm lucky to be able to spend this amount of money on a camera, but if I couldn't, a 200 euro compact wouldn't make me a worse photographer.

Thinking of it, I know people making better photos with their bloody iphone! It's all about composition and timing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Nick_S]

... I'm in love with both my Leica's because I like the way how it looks. It feels solid in my hands and the shutter sound it very pleasing. The focussing feels smooth.

I'm lucky to be able to spend this amount of money on a camera, but if I couldn't, a 200 euro compact wouldn't make me a worse photographer.

I couldn't take the same photos as I do with my Leicas using a compact digital camera -- there's far too much autofocus and shutter lag. However, I could spend those 200 euros on an Olympus OM-1 film SLR camera with 50 mm and/or 35mm lenses, buy some Ilford XP-2 film, and I could get very close (along the lines suggested by another contributor above).

 

Nick

[Fireboy]

...Although 28MM is also great for street it will be slightly less versatile if you want to get into portraits and other styles...

 

I may slightly disagree with this. I've done some great 28mm "portraits".

 

NSFW

 

nsfw — Jeff Kew Photography

[lenticularis]

So many replies from so many people, many of whom have taken quite a bit of time to provide advice.

 

I'll keep mine relatively short - just to say that I would also advocate buying a good M8. I've had one before and sold it to fund an M9 that has been waiting 6 months for a new main board/sensor/SD card reader repair, all because updating the firmware caused the SD card to be unrecognised. While I wait I have bought another M8. The M8 is brilliant for B&W and even infra-red photography (with an IR-pass, visible light blocking filter). You'll save enough over an M9 or the even more pricey M.240 to be able to afford a film M (2, 3 or 4) in addition. Nothing compares with the silky smooth cloth shutter of a film Leica!

 

Buy Cosina-Voigtlander (CV) or Zeiss lenses for more purchase power over Leicas and for goodness sake keep some of your $ for those life and travel experiences yet to come!

 

Good luck.

[CaymanS]

Nothing wrong with an ME but wise policy is to rent one and see if you can get used to the optical rangefinder and especially the offset viewing angle, especially if you have never used this set up before. Many people get fed up with the latter and resort to DSLR or EVF cameras. Don't buy an M240 if you are likely to want rely on the EVF as there are other cameras that have better EVF than the Leica add-on M240 EVF (Epson/Olympus sourced). Some of the best images I've seen I've shot on an M9 (basically ME is this stripped down with same CCD sensor) and capable of interpolation of images that in other cameras would require more megapixels. Never had a problem with jpegs or raw output from this CCD but if buying secondhand make sure ME/M9 rangefinder has been calibrated/checked beforehand by the dealer. Try to fund either a 35mm or 50mm Leica secondhand optic if you can. The cheaper alternatives by Zeiss/Cosina/Voigtlander are good if more contrasty but there is something about Leica glass... more subtle information in the shadows... the real reason why you would buy a Leica in the first place. (BTW I use an M6 and and M240 having owned M3/M4/M8 and M9 in the past)

[}{B]

It looks like dealers may not get any new M-Es until next Spring going off Leica's reply to an enquiry about sensor replacement as related in this thread.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/313079-m9-issue-purplish-images-pls-help.html#post2580647

 

If Leica are having such a problem in obtaining CCD sensors is buying any M camera, new or used, that uses this type a wise move unless the continuity of supply is made clearer?

[chrism]

First camera, but has some experience with auto-everything? Student on a budget? It's strange to see digital Leicas being recommended to someone with those constraints - some of the most expensive cameras around, and ones requiring the old-fashioned skills that don't come overnight, along with rather expensive lenses. Don't misunderstand me: I love my film Leicas and my digital Leicas, but I still wouldn't encourage anyone to invest that much money in something they might not like, or might have difficulty in using successfully. But since I agree that learning those skills is a certain way to enjoy taking photographs I'll make some recommendations that are a bit cheaper:

 

1. For a cheap, capable camera that will teach you about focusing, exposure etc I'd get an old film SLR. An Olympus OM-2 or a Pentax ME Super will take care of the exposure while you learn the focusing, and are the right size to get your hands used to Leicas. Then you can switch to manual exposure if you like.

2. If it has to be a rangefinder, then why not a Bessa R3 or R4? They give the cheapest entry to the rangefinder world, and any lens bought will work on later Leicas. If I'm being too cheap, and the 'keep both eyes open' thing is very important, you would like a Zeiss Ikon. All can be sold later at a relatively small loss.

3. For the film cameras above I would recommend commercial processing of the film with scans on a CD. I know they won't be fantastic scans but they will allow some basic computer manipulation and choice about what to crop and which to print. Relatively cheap (or unpaid shareware) would suffice at this stage, such as Graphic Converter on the Mac.

4. If experience with one of the cameras above is positive, and the rangefinder way of doing it seems attractive, then you might look at whether you want to commit and buy what you will eventually need (always cheaper if you are going to go there anyway), or whether you should buy and sell some compromises along the way (the film cameras above are suggested as it doesn't seem certain our OP is committed to RFs and they are available so cheaply that they barely count as expenses). I enjoyed my M8 and 8.2, but the IR filters were a bit of a pain and an unnecessary expense if, at this stage, you want to go as far as an M9 or ME. Nonetheless, the M8/M8.2 are still very good cameras and very capable. Ultimately, once you know that photography is important enough to you to become a significant part of your budget, you want the best you can get, so the M240 is currently the gateway to future expense and penury. But always remember, it doesn't actually do anything that you can't do, one way or another, with the cheapo film cameras above. Life, as always, is about choices.

 

Chris

[DigitalHeMan]

First camera, but has some experience with auto-everything? Student on a budget? It's strange to see digital Leicas being recommended to someone with those constraints - some of the most expensive cameras around, and ones requiring the old-fashioned skills that don't come overnight, along with rather expensive........

 

 

I think the general theme of the thread was the suggestion not to invest so much money, however the OP was very insistent that he knew what he wanted, and it's all omit now as he has purchased an M240....

[intermediatic]

A Leica is an excellent choice! Why not start buying your glass on the best 35mm platform that exists? Plus, you'll spend your time learning to use a camera, not learning how to use menus to set up automatic modes that don't deliver well.

 

YOU are the best judge of focus and exposure, not the camera.

 

Now for some don'ts.

 

Don't get a film rangefinder (unless it's for a few weeks).

 

Film is not the same anymore. The processes for making the film itself have changed and a large number of classic film lines have gone obsolete. Paper is expensive and darkrooms uncommon now, unless you scan your negatives or slides in. A good film and negative scanner is quite pricey, at least $500 and likely more. Anything less will just confuse you with the noise it will throw into the image.

 

Don't buy Leica lenses.

 

So sorry to all those of you that disagree. What can I say? A thousand apologies flow your way from my heart. That said, they're just not worth it when Cosina-Voigtlander makes such fantastic glass for a fraction of the price. Maybe it's 97% of a Leica lens (i'm being generous, I see it as 99% of a Leica lens), but you can get a faster CV lens than a low end Leica lens like a Summarit. I own a 35mm CV Nokton Classic 1.4 and a 35 Leica Summarit 2.5 as well as a 50mm CV Nokton Classic 1.5 and a 50mm Leica Summarit 2.5. I use the Leicas much less than the CV's. Honestly, I only use the Leicas when I want to prove to myself they are better than the CV's for certain shots. I haven't proved that yet. If the price wasn't going up and I needed the money, I'd sell them.

 

Price for these two CVs, courtesy of B & H

 

35mm 649

50mm 1049 silver, 899 black

 

total 1548

 

Price for the two Leicas.

 

35mm 1950

50mm 1750

 

total 3700

 

But wait, my favorite lens of all is the CV 75mm 1.8 for 599, so you can buy the wide and standard CV plus the tele for significantly less than the price of the two Leica lenses.

 

There's more though. If you look at the lenses that CV is competing with, it's not really the Summarits. Rather, it's the substantially more expensive Summilux that the CV is 97% of the lens of. The 35mm Summilux is 4250 and 50mm Summilux is 5150. So you're really looking at almost $10,000 of lenses plus of course the superlative 75mm for $10,000.

 

Don't listen to me. Get a subscription to Reid Reviews and read up on the lens choices there. I'd post some quotes, but that wouldn't be fare to the author.

 

Don't buy an M8. The warranty is long gone and when something breaks, you will be out a pretty penny you will hardly be able to afford. Moreover, the M8 has a 1.33 crop factor. If I'm correct, that makes your 35mm wide a 46mm standard lens. Shooting wide is a joy. I never recommend crop factors in any format.

 

As for an M-E vs an M 240. It's your money and your choice.

 

At the moment, the M 240 has dodgy firmware that will get in the way of easily switching from automatic to manual shutter exposure. We have been promised this will be fixed soon. The M-E (and I assume it's got exactly the same firmware as the M9) is just fine.

 

The M 240 is a little more fiddly. There are more menus to work through and more options. You don't need a EVF, but you may wind up getting one and that'll take your focus off basics (then again, it's super-useful and if you can wait a while then go ahead). The ability to use R lenses is useful, although not necessarily.

 

I have not lived in Japan, but it's one of the safest countries on Earth. I wouldn't worry about the camera being stolen. It's much less in your face than a 5D MK 3 with L glass and the people who notice it will give you compliments. If you are at all concerned, get a black M9 and tape over the red dot (that said, I much prefer my silver M240 look and felt totally safe with it anywhere in Hong Kong or New York). If you're veteran then I'm sure you have a decent awareness of security and your own place in the world. You'll be fine with it.

 

Get an M-E or an M 240, whichever you can afford, get a bunch of CV lenses and be happy!

[jaapv]

I cannot endorse the lens advice, though. I have a few dozen lenses of various brands, but the CV ones get used least, because I like the rendering of Leica better.

[tookaphotoof]

Somewhat strange to say a scanner is pricey and advising someone to get an M240 at the same time...

With just a decent scanner, 35 or 50 Summicron and an M4P you have a load of cash left to spend on film instead of just owning an M240 with one lens.

I recently added an M8.2 to my MP and M6.

No warranty but at less than 1/5 the cost of a new M240 I really don't care.

 

 

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[Archiver]

The M9 was my first Leica after a slew of digital and film compacts, and two Canon DSLR's including the 5D Mark II. Even though I had a Zeiss Ikon for a couple of years, it did NOT prepare me for the M9.

 

Even with some years of experience with modern digital cameras, it took me a good month of shooting every single day before the M9 became 'easier' for me. I persevered and it became my all time favourite camera. It went with me to Japan a few months later, and in those weeks of travel, I took some of the best images I had ever made in my life.

 

Having said that, I must say that my second favourite cameras are much smaller, lighter and less expensive than the M9. There are times when even just the M9 and one lens is cumbersome and tiring, whereas a Ricoh GR or Panasonic LX7 will slip in your pocket or side of your bag, and you won't know it's there until you need it. Keep that in mind for when you are trekking around Japan for two years!

 

You've already got a lot of suggestions for lenses, and I will offer mine. I, too, recommend a three lens kit if you can afford it. Mine is 21mm, 35mm and 50mm. I have two 75mm lenses but they are not used very often, unless I'm shooting at events, and almost never for travel. My visual preference is for very wide, moderately wide, and normal perspectives.

 

Zeiss make optically excellent lenses, but I cannot say they are the most robust. I have four Zeiss lenses and two have loose front barrels and focus rings that will need to be tightened at the factory. Ironically, the lower cost Voigtlanders, which are made at the same factory by the same company, are all mechanically perfect and have taken the same amount of use, probably more, than my Zeiss lenses. As for rendering, I think that the Zeiss look is generally more modern and clinical, as opposed to Voigtlander, which has more aberrations, distortion and 'character'.

 

Some fast lenses that won't break the bank (as much) are the Zeiss 21mm f2.8, the Voigtlander 35/1.4, Voigtlander 40/1.4, and the new Voigtlander Nokton 50mm/1.5. I'll usually use the Voigtlander 35/1.4 if I want a compact and fast 35, and the Zeiss C Sonnar 50/1.5 if I want to shoot people in low light. Some of my favourite images have been taken with the Zeiss Sonnar. I don't have the Voigtlander 50/1.5 yet, but I understand it to be a super lens with great rendering and smooth bokeh.

 

I highly, highly recommend a decent pocket camera as well, both as backup and as a more discreet camera. Mine is the Ricoh GR, which produces images that are surprisingly close to the M9 with the Zeiss 28/2.8 in quality. As an alternative, for the less than the price of a used Leica or Zeiss 28, one could use the GR as a wide angle option and a fast 50 on the M9/E/240.

 

Good luck with your choices and trip!