Leica M-E as a first camera?

[Jeff S]

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Smart move...I didn't know you were in the States, or I would have suggested the same. And I'm sure you're aware that you could rent the M-E, too.

 

Jeff

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[Dikaiosune01]

I think you have a few options here; this is the order of my preference...

 

(1) Leica M240. yes it is more expensive, but with low light, i think you do get much more mileage. For the past 14 months, I've been struggling if i should wait for hte 240, or just get the ME so i could go out there to shoot. I waited for the 240.

(I had no other DSLR)

 

(2) Leica M6. As other have eluded, film is plentiful in japan. Especially if you haunt the larger cities. At leica prices, film is still cheaper than shooting digital. And if you get it scanned, you can worry less about post processing.

 

(3) Leica ME. To me feels a bit of a compromise from the M240. I'm personally glad I spent the extra money and patience to get the 240. But if the 240 didn't exisit, i'd probably still be very happy with the ME.

[Torgian]

So unfortunately, the rental is off the table. They needed either an 8k deposit for the camera and lens, or proof of employment. I'm a student, unemployed and studying Japanese, so I couldn't do that, and I'd rather not pony up the money for a Leica rental.

 

However, two interesting things happened. I talked to the local shop today over the phone. They're willing to let me play around with their Leica in-store to see if I would enjoy it. Granted, I won't be able to take anymore than 3 - 5 shot,s but I'll get a chance to see if I can get a hand on focusing and so on.

 

And another... my mom is going to give me her 50mm and a 70 - 210 mm lens. I'm not sure what brand they are (esp. the 700-210) but if anything if they're decent enough I may be able to go straight for the 240 without having to worry about a lens right away.

[jonogilmour]

So I've never done any post processing with photos before, is it very difficult? Why would I need to PP an image from an M9/ME?

 

And yes, I do have a macbook that I am using (with japanese keyboard!)

 

How does the m9/me stand up to low light situations? I can imagine myself going out to take street photos during dusk/night for those nice city street shots. I do like the lights of the city at night and would like to capture that.

 

I head the m240 is better at low light, but it is also 1500 more expensive, and currently in back order from all the online shops I saw.

 

PP is incredibly easy. it's all about learning what to look for in an image and then applying certain small changes to get that look you're after. Commonly all you need to do is brighten/darken, change contrast, saturation, and you're done for most images. You can pretty easily teach yourself, plus a new Leica comes with Adobe Lightroom which is a very capable suite.

 

Low light is not a forte of any camera, but what you can do is convert the photo to black and white if it's quite noisy. Often this can salvage a crappy colour image. All Leica lenses are fast, and with some practice you can handhold using slow shutter speeds. That or use a tripod. It's all about practice. No camera can pull light out of complete darkness without a flash.

 

Don't mistake the M-E for a beginner's camera though. Remember the M9 was the Leica flagship at one point, so the M-E is a no less capable camera than any. You could definitely get it as a beginner camera as there's no fuss and very little setup. Just set your exposure, focus, and shoot. Brilliant.

 

I think no matter what camera you get, it's all about your abilities and the things you take photos of that make great images. I think a Leica brings significant enjoyment to the art that no other camera does in my mind, but it is not necessary to take fantastic images. Many people are satisfied with a single camera-lens combination, as many Leica users are, but a lot of people also use their phones as their primary camera with great success.

 

Trial the M for a bit, and if you enjoy the experience but could do without the higher price tag then get the M-E or a used M9-P (new is usually better for warranty and other reasons).

[Torgian]

So to pass the time tonight, I've been reading up on how rangefinders work, and I find it remarkably simple, as far as how focusing works. When I look at a digital camera and see how it's focused either in manual mode, I've always kind of wondered if I was truly at a near-perfect focus. With a rangefinder's secondary image, it seems to me that focusing is that much easier. In a sense.

 

Keeping in mind that I'm a beginner, I have to wonder why this type of focusing isn't more readily available. I just feel like it would be the best way to do it. I can imagine that after some time with practice, one can focus manually quite quickly.

 

It seems to me that focusing on a subject and then moving the camera away from the subject a bit (as in, left or right) would be easy to do in order to frame your subject more to the left or right of your shot, rather than directly in the center.

 

Then again, I'm just using my imagination here. Feel free to correct me.

 

Either way, reading about rangefinders is a nice way to spend the evening before bed.

[pfhrased]

if you plan on some low light street photography you should really take a good look at the Voigtlander 35mm 1.2 - stunning rendering, easy to focus, low price. Downside? It's big.

[Nick_S]

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I'm a student, unemployed and studying Japanese...

 

You might consider getting get a used M6 for about $1000 plus a 35 or 50mm Summicron (which is a classic combination) and shoot film for a while. Many labs offer to develop negatives and scan to DVD-ROM to get digital files. If you like the camera, but later want a digital body, you can trade it in for a similar value toward an ME or M240 while retaining the lens.

 

Nick

[philipus]

If I were in this situation, as a student, I would not shell out heaps of cash on a digital camera. Then again I'm since my teens firmly a film photographer and always will be.

 

As others have said, film is plentiful in Japan. In fact, that country is probably the place on the planet for film photography.

 

Get a serviced M6 or M6TTL. And get an Epson flatbed scanner to use with your laptop.

 

As for the lens, I'm a 50mm photographer, especially in street situations, to get close. An M6 and a Summicron III or IV, or even a pre-asph Summilux, will be one heck of a combo. An M-E and a 35 Summarit will be, what, $7500? The roughly $5400 for the M-E is plenty of film and development...and a lot of pleasure.

 

Don't forget that you can also buy when you've arrived. The selection of photo shops selling used (and of course new) gear is staggering. When I was in Japan I bought several lenses and was amazed at how well kept they were. "Used" clearly means different things to them. Good prices too.

 

Just some thoughts to add further difficulty to your choice.

Philip

 

Ps. Film is better than digital

[earleygallery]

And another... my mom is going to give me her 50mm and a 70 - 210 mm lens. I'm not sure what brand they are (esp. the 700-210) but if anything if they're decent enough I may be able to go straight for the 240 without having to worry about a lens right away.

 

Hold on! Those lenses are going to be for an SLR of some make (well certainly the zoom will be) which means you can't focus them on a rangefinder and you'd need an EVF for the M, which you said you don't like to use.

[hepcat]

So to pass the time tonight, I've been reading up on how rangefinders work, and I find it remarkably simple, as far as how focusing works. When I look at a digital camera and see how it's focused either in manual mode, I've always kind of wondered if I was truly at a near-perfect focus. With a rangefinder's secondary image, it seems to me that focusing is that much easier. In a sense.

 

Keeping in mind that I'm a beginner, I have to wonder why this type of focusing isn't more readily available. I just feel like it would be the best way to do it. I can imagine that after some time with practice, one can focus manually quite quickly.

 

It seems to me that focusing on a subject and then moving the camera away from the subject a bit (as in, left or right) would be easy to do in order to frame your subject more to the left or right of your shot, rather than directly in the center.

 

Then again, I'm just using my imagination here. Feel free to correct me.

 

Either way, reading about rangefinders is a nice way to spend the evening before bed.

 

Rangefinders ARE remarkably simple in concept; in execution they're fiddly devices that are difficult and expensive to produce. A split-image coincident-rangefinder/viewfinder is just the ticket for me though too, and you're right... Leica is the only game in town for digital rangefinder cameras.

 

You've been offered some really good advice here, although it's kind of been all over the map. I'm a pragmatist, and also a bike rider. I'm also a former Navy Photographer's Mate from 40 years ago, so I understand the vet-going-to-school issues. My cash, and its conservation is very important to me (as important as making images) so I'm going to offer some advice that is a little out of the mainstream here.

 

Lenses make the image. The camera body is just a box that holds the focusing mechanism and shutter and their controls. With that in mind, lens consideration should come first. There is no doubt that Leica lenses are premier. The price of admission also makes them largely undesirable in MY cash-conscious world. There are image-makers out there that are nearly their equal (to the point that there is no functional difference) at 1/10th the price new, and even less used. I have eight M mount lenses, five Cosina-Voigtlander and three 1960s vintage Leitz. I have friends who swear by Zeiss lenses. They're all good; they just render a little differently, but unless you shoot a Zeiss, Leica, and Cosina-Voigtlander lens and display the prints in a side-by-side, you'll likely never see any difference and no one can tell you what brand of lens you made any given image with.

 

For me, the 1960s Leitz offerings with the scalloped focusing rings represent the pinnacle of lens barrel design and tactile feedback. The CV lenses have copied that feel quite accurately. I have all five modern design, large-aperture CV lenses; all for less than the cost of the least expensive Noctilux alone... considerably less. I have three bodies; an M9-P, an M8 anti-panda, and an M4-P (all like-new used) for less than the cost of the M or M9-P new. The M4-P was essentially free as I bought it in a kit and sold the rest of the bits for what I paid for the entire kit. I bought the M9-P with 1100 actuations for about half of what a new one cost.

 

Now, here's my advice. It is possible to live happily with a single lens, but a three lens travel combo is ideal for what you have in mind. For me, large aperture glass is a necessity for a three-lens travel combo because you're heading into unknown shooting conditions, and you'll want to be able to make images anywhere you are. The classic three lens rangefinder combo is a 28-35-75 or 28-50-90, or 35-50-90 depending on your shooting style and whether you're shooting "full-frame" 35mm or an APS sensor like the M8 has. Again, though, large-aperture glass is THE most important part of the kit.

 

So... Keep your bike until you need to sell it. It has value to you that is greater than its cash value. If you're looking to make images rather than a fashion statement, and you're cash-conscious, buy good glass but buy Zeiss or CV, and buy used. There's plenty of like-new used equipment out there at fire-sale prices. If you can find a nice used Leitz lens that catches your fancy for a bargain, buy it, but don't worry about being married to Leitz glass. Remember, you're buying the kit for making images, not a fashion statement.

 

After you've decided on glass, then, decide what you want for a body. You can buy M4-P film bodies all day long for less than $700 and most places will process your negatives and scan your images for you. With an M4-P or M6 body and used CV/Zeiss lenses you can build a three (large aperture) lens, film body kit for around $3000. You have two years to perfect your technique, and decide what you'll want to take to Japan with you, and your lenses will work on any M body. If you really want to go natively digital right now, find a nice M8 body in good condition for $1500 and shoot away. The 28-35-75 is a good combo with the M8. Do your homework so you understand the M8, but don't be afraid of one, especially in the $1500 range. Compared to a $7000 M, a $1500 M8 is a consumable, and valuable as a tool for climbing that learning curve.

 

Going that route, you'll save a ton of cash up front; you'll have a good, versatile lens set that will potentially last you a lifetime; you can make images and perfect your style; and it will give you an opportunity to find out what you like and don't like about specific gear without mortgaging half your first year of living expenses. When you are closer to the time you're heading out, if you decide that the M-E or M is the body for you, then get one. You'll already have the rest of the kit, you'll be comfortable with the way it handles and the images you get, and you'll have two years' experience with it under your belt already.

 

Good luck!

[Torgian]

My thanks for your advice. Although I don't have two years until I go to Japan. I leave in March actually, and I'll be IN Japan for two years.

 

Which means I'm selling the bike (and almost everything else for that matter) right now. Just put the bike on Ebay actually. I have another to get around town with... sold my car a couple months ago.

 

With that said, I'll keep your advice in mind. It may be a couple months, but I'll figure out what camera would be best for me.

 

Also, thanks for your advice on lenses as well.

[joeswe]

Having spent considerable time in Japan as a student in the 90s, I can testify that Japan is one of the places that can be really, really fun, but are rather difficult to enjoy when you are a student on a tight budget. So in your position I would rather not spend thousands of dollars on a camera system, because you will need every penny available once you have arrived there to make Japan a joyful experience. Rather use your money in Japan for experiencing things, traveling and social life, which will be very cost intensive in Japan. This will not only make you a happier man, but also a better photographer.

 

As for a camera to capture all the great moments you will experience thanks to the money you didn't spend on a $$$$ digital Leica, get yourself a nice used classic film SLR like an Olympus OM-2 and a 50mm lens, which will set you back 100 bucks or so, but reward you with one of the most enjoyable finders ever made. It is also a great tool to learn photography from scratch and a great tool for shooting at night. It is almost as smooth and pocketable as a Leica M. You can always add other lenses easily and for very reasonable cost in Japan (the market for 2nd hand camera gear is an Eldorado second to none), and in the unlikely case that there is a problem with the camera, it will be very easy to find reasonably priced service. In case you feel that it absolutely has to be a rangefinder camera (my impression from what you write is that you have very little or no experiences with the differences between rangefinder and SLR cameras), go for a user M6 as recommended by philipus.

[hepcat]

My thanks for your advice. Although I don't have two years until I go to Japan. I leave in March actually, and I'll be IN Japan for two years.

 

Which means I'm selling the bike (and almost everything else for that matter) right now. Just put the bike on Ebay actually. I have another to get around town with... sold my car a couple months ago.

 

With that said, I'll keep your advice in mind. It may be a couple months, but I'll figure out what camera would be best for me.

 

Also, thanks for your advice on lenses as well.

 

You're welcome, and uhh, sorry. I must have misread your original post. Duh.

 

That being the case, I absolutely second joeswe's advice above about using your money wisely. Being able to travel and see the country is more important than what gear you use to photograph it, as long as the gear you use is comfortable, competent and reliable.

 

Good luck finding what you think you want!

[Torgian]

Gods damn.

 

So I got to use a Leica today. Wow. Using a rangefinder is very engaging. I liked how easy it was to simply focus. I feel a lot more connection with the rangefinder than I do with an autofocus digital slr.

 

Eh.

 

Well, either way, the local camera shop talked to a Leica rep and said that they do have an M-E that is being refurbished. He's gonna tell me what the price is gonna be when they're done with it, probably tomorrow or the next day.

 

If not, then there is a 240 that they may be able to get within a couple of weeks if it isn't already accounted for. Which to me seem alike it would be better for low light, but from what I've read it isn't too difficult to do low-light with an M9/M-E.

 

Decisions decisions.

 

All I can say is that Leica seems to make some damn good stuff XD

[hepcat]

There's a LOT of companies making some pretty darn good stuff. Leica just happens to be the only company who makes a coincident-rangefinder/viewfinder digital camera. None of them are without issues, but I'm willing to live with the issues Leica has to use a rangefinder camera. Like you, I find them intuitive and just plain easy to use.

 

So you can find low-mileage M9's between $3500 and $4k all day long. An M8 will set you back $1500. An M-240 will run you $7k. How much travel can you do with $3k? Just sayin'...

[2wk]

I would say… Get an M6 and a summicron. As said, there are tons of places to buy/develop film in japan. You will fall in love with the camera and maybe even find another lens over there. Wouldn't you rather have an extra 4k in your pocket in Japan?! I would!!

 

Then you can always get a digital M body down the road if you want.

[Mike T 1969]

Totally agree on either film M6 or the M-E. And a 35mm or 50mm. Keep it simple.

[exile]

Limited budget. Possible security issues in a dorm. Wants an optical rangefinder. Sounds like has a preference for digital but no experience post processing. Certainly the digital option will accelerate the learning curve and will not inhibit you from taking thousands of street shots. Likes the feel of a Leica. Does not have a need to print huge.

 

I would suggest a low mileage M8 and a 40 mm Rokkor. You will be able to buy these on arrival for a good price and have a JP local dealer as a contact if anything goes wrong. Check Flickr groups for samples. Get hold of Lightroom. The camera and lens combination will deliver excellent image quality and user experience, but post processing is what will take you images to the level above that.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tookaphotoof]

I'd say a light meter, M4P and Summicron. All used. Can't start much cheaper and if you shoot enough there comes a time you won't need a light meter any more.

I have an MP and M6. I don't really use the internal lightmeter any more. I trust my own judgement more and more.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Olyamk]

Just my two cents.

 

I was on a verge of buying a new M-E to replace my M8, but I didn't like the charcoal color and the lack of the viewfinder lever on the M-E - it looked like a [simplified] copy of a true Leica. I went for a used M9u with a remaining factory warranty instead.

 

I would also second the opinion that buying a used M8 would be a wise step to try what a Leica digital RF world is. And less expensive one, as well.