bill Posted February 26, 2014 Share #461 Posted February 26, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I dismiss nothing "out of hand", although I acknowledge it is a bad habit around here with those who think the red dot is the last word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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wildlightphoto Posted February 26, 2014 Share #462 Posted February 26, 2014 There have, in recent years, been many new entrants to the Leica world who have little or no understanding or interest in where Leica has come from and who simply - and understandably - want the "best" glass. Then there are those who want Leica to offer "me-too" products and functionality to go head to head with the market leaders. And there are those for whom Leica ownership is some sort of badge of having arrived, financially and photographically. Finally there are those - and I put myself in this group - who find themselves staring sometimes in gape-mouthed disbelief at some of the company's mis-steps and feel the pain of beating their heads against a seemingly inert brick wall. We care about the company and, like watching your best friend marry the bride from hell, we despair when they do some of the things they do. There are only two kinds of people: those who pigeonhole others, and those who don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 26, 2014 Share #463 Posted February 26, 2014 No, there are three kinds of people - those who can count, and those who can't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 26, 2014 Share #464 Posted February 26, 2014 Hmmm. I cannot find myself in those catagories. Despite taking my iiif in hand quite regularly (although not as often as I should) as I prefer it over the M3/M2 for a number of reasons, I really do think that the M240 is the best M camera Leica ever built.... Eh - hum... ... let's wait a little time for such a strong assertion... as of today... I prefer to state is the best digital imagery machine they built, S included. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 26, 2014 Share #465 Posted February 26, 2014 Superficial similarities aside, the Olympus Pen and Fuji X on the one side and the Leica M on the other are really quite different concepts. Someone switching from an Olympus or Fuji to a Leica was probably attracted by the former’s rangefinder-like appearance, but realised what he or she really wanted was a proper rangefinder. I suppose that someone switching in the different direction did not care that much about rangefinders in the first place, so that move makes sense as well. It all sorts itself out, eventually. I like the rangefinder and large optical viewfinder. I also like the very good EVFs of the later generation EVIL cameras. But there is a basic difference (for me): how the shutter behaves. In the rangefinder camera (or réflex camera), it opens and close. Very fast. It is even better in a rangefinder than a reflex camera (because of the mirror, blackening of the viewfinder, etc.). In the EVIL camera (or the M camera with EVF) the shutter is open, then closes, open, closes and open again. I cannot work this way. This is, for me, the main difference. It will disappear when full electronic shutters (in sensor shutters) are ready. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 26, 2014 Share #466 Posted February 26, 2014 In the EVIL camera (or the M camera with EVF) the shutter is open, then closes, open, closes and open again. I cannot work this way. This is, for me, the main difference. It will disappear when full electronic shutters (in sensor shutters) are ready. The Sony A7 (there may be others) has an Electronic First Curtain option where the shutter does not need to close before starting the exposure: The shutter is open for viewing The exposure is started electronically the shutter closes to end the exposure the shutter opens again for viewing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 26, 2014 Share #467 Posted February 26, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Sony A7 (there may be others) has an Electronic First Curtain option where the shutter does not need to close before starting the exposure: The shutter is open for viewing The exposure is started electronically the shutter closes to end the exposure the shutter opens again for viewing. If it is possible to start the exposure electronically, why isn't it possible to end it electronically as well? Then you wouldn't need any shutter any more - or am I missing a point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 26, 2014 Share #468 Posted February 26, 2014 If it is possible to start the exposure electronically, why isn't it possible to end it electronically as well? Then you wouldn't need any shutter any more - or am I missing a point? Ask Leica. When using the central shutter the S starts the exposure electronically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 26, 2014 Share #469 Posted February 26, 2014 Superficial similarities aside, the Olympus Pen and Fuji X on the one side and the Leica M on the other are really quite different concepts. Someone switching from an Olympus or Fuji to a Leica was probably attracted by the former’s rangefinder-like appearance, but realised what he or she really wanted was a proper rangefinder. For me it really was quite straight forward. I found that with the X100 I was using the optical viewfinder more than 90% of the time. In the end I really didn't care for the blackout and lag in the EVF, this was better in the EM-5 I had for a couple of days but still neither is nothing like as nice as a proper 35mm optical viewfinder. I very much bonded with the whole seeing outside of the frame lines thing which you only get with RFs or RF-a-like cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 26, 2014 Share #470 Posted February 26, 2014 Imagine, inside the T there is a full frame sensor. For the picture it crops to APS-C, but the EVF displays the full picture with cropping APS frame lines. Is this, what you would like? Perhaps the FF sensor production delivers enough crap for this kind of use? For bill, isn´t the M-E the camera, that is waving to you? Perhaps there will even be an M-F in the future. Why do you complain about the M240? OK, this one should develop into an FF evil in the next iteration. Leica has to survive, you know. Blackstone, etc. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 26, 2014 Share #471 Posted February 26, 2014 ...For bill, isn´t the M-E the camera, that is waving to you? ... Not in a million years... If you think that I cannot have been clear. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 26, 2014 Share #472 Posted February 26, 2014 I love the optical rangefinders on my M3, M9 & Monochrom. But, I would like to add a cheaper camera to those which still takes my fabulous Leica M lenses, and other longer and shorter lenses which don't work with the rangefinder (eg zoom lenses, R lenses, macro and the like). Underlying all this is also my concern (which I've expressed before, and another poster here has mentioned about the beauty of the mechanical film M cameras in use) that Leica is combining a complex thing of beauty (the M body and optical rangefinder) to electronics which have a considerably shorter lifespan and which are also somewhat less than state of the art. But, they charge traditional Leica prices. I am not looking forward to the day the electronics in my two CCD based cameras die and Leica tells me they can't/won't fix them. I will be very cross, and more than a little sad that such a great company has joined the throw away consumernomics based society. That is not what I bought into with Leica. Do I wish Leica harm? Don't be stupid. I wish them the very best of success. I just don't like what they appear to be doing. I largely agree with what the other guy was saying. Who? I think you can guess. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 26, 2014 Share #473 Posted February 26, 2014 Perhaps - in a million years - cameras waving for some are produced and sent to some from another galaxy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 26, 2014 Share #474 Posted February 26, 2014 If it is possible to start the exposure electronically, why isn't it possible to end it electronically as well? Starting the exposure electronically is (relatively) easy. The Leica S and S2 do this, for example. Their sensor can drain all its pixels simultaneously and instantaneously which is all you need. Stopping the exposure is something entirely different. For one thing you cannot really stop the exposure electronically as the the sensor will still be exposed to light. So in lieu of actually stopping the exposure you must read out all the pixels to capture their state – the electric charge accumulated in each pixel – as fast as possible. But even then the last pixel read out would have a significantly longer exposure time than the first one. That’s why CMOS sensors use a rolling electronic shutter: both the start and the end of the exposure of each pixel happen sequentially rather than in parallel, so while they aren’t exposed at exactly the same time (giving rise to artefacts with moving subjects), at least the duration of the exposure is the same. Alternatively you can add a second capacitator to each pixel that is shielded against light and thus stays unexposed. To stop the exposure, each pixel drains the charge accumulated into the second capacitator which can then be read out at leisure. This has always been quite popular with CCDs; most compact cameras have interline transfer CCDs that implement a global (rather than rolling) electronic shutter in this fashion. Sensor manufacturers have been working on CMOS-based sensors with a global shutter that at the same time satisfy the usual image quality requirements and surely, sooner or later they will succeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 26, 2014 Share #475 Posted February 26, 2014 Though at the present state of art this article from 2010 Warum haben spiegellose Systemkameras immer noch einen Verschluss? is still up to date? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share #476 Posted February 26, 2014 Ask Leica. When using the central shutter the S starts the exposure electronically. Doug since my thread has inevitably mutated, I'll take the opportunity to think about what you said there. I have used the S for a day in a studio, taking advantage of the high synch speed with a CS lens. With a combination of available light and studio strobes I saw some radically different exposure results that I found hard to fully understand. I must investigate the why. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 26, 2014 Share #477 Posted February 26, 2014 Though at the present state of art this article from 2010Warum haben spiegellose Systemkameras immer noch einen Verschluss? is still up to date? It still accurately sums up the current state of the art I’m afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 27, 2014 Share #478 Posted February 27, 2014 Using the electronic shutter of the Ricoh M-mount nothing moves. Works fine, absolutely noiseless. I did not have fast moving subjects till now. My dog is aging, so does not move fast any more. If she hunts after a cat -however - I am too slow to take a picture. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 27, 2014 Share #479 Posted February 27, 2014 Not in a million years... If you think that I cannot have been clear.Sent from another Galaxy I found this part of a discussion (between several forum members). Seems to be valid still. Quote: We might even switch off the LCD if we want to shoot like HCB. Ha! This one is totally awesome and an instant classic! I almost want to use it as my tag line :-) ... perhaps you should consider to patent it now? .... We wouldn't be bothered with that bloat if we don't buy the EVF would we. Ah but we would. You see, bloat is not restricted to what you can see. There is by definition increased complexity in hardware and firmware. But, you know what? I really can't get worked up about it. What will be, will be. Leica are not about to look at post #4879 in this thread, slap themselves on the foreheads and shout "Gott in Himmel! Back to der drawing boards!!" All I ask for, yet again, in vain, (and this is not directed at you, xxx) is a recognition that what one person wants is not by definition what everybody wants. It may not even be what one person needs - it is certainly not what everybody needs. End A camera construction, that is modifiable for different groups of customers. Somehow like ordering a car. Would that give a more reliable concept? I agree, that I would like to modify the user interface in the sense of deleting (for me) obsolete functions. See the SCN-modes of the D-Lux 4. But that could be done as an owner of the camera, not during the production in the factory. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted February 27, 2014 Share #480 Posted February 27, 2014 Doug since my thread has inevitably mutated, I'll take the opportunity to think about what you said there. I have used the S for a day in a studio, taking advantage of the high synch speed with a CS lens. With a combination of available light and studio strobes I saw some radically different exposure results that I found hard to fully understand. I must investigate the why. Geoff, if you have an iPad, you can download the S-Magazine issue 1 - 2012 for free and read a really good article about the S CS lenses here: S-Magazine | S-League Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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