mjh Posted February 15, 2014 Share #321 Posted February 15, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually when one stands back and looks at the current MILC systems you have to ask why on earth haven't they used leaf shutter units? For one thing, leaf shutters would drive up the price of lenses. Also you run into problems when you want to combine a fast shutter speed with a large aperture. The Fuji X100 and X100s have an integrated ND filter to make up for the fact that you cannot use 1/4000 s fully open – you have to stop down to f/8 for the fastest shutter speed. If everyone does the same thing, they usually have very good reasons to do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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mwilliamsphotography Posted February 15, 2014 Share #322 Posted February 15, 2014 For one thing, leaf shutters would drive up the price of lenses. Also you run into problems when you want to combine a fast shutter speed with a large aperture. The Fuji X100 and X100s have an integrated ND filter to make up for the fact that you cannot use 1/4000 s fully open – you have to stop down to f/8 for the fastest shutter speed. If everyone does the same thing, they usually have very good reasons to do so. If that were true, then Leica would have made a focal plane shutter S2 instead of a dual shutter camera with sync to 1/1000 and CS lenses. If that were true, Leica would not have made the M Monochrome. If that were true, Leica would not have invented the 35mm camera in the first place. A leaf shutter solution needed not be "all" shutter speeds … just higher shutter speeds than normal. It's conceivable that up to 1/1600 could be done with a 35mm gate. At least it'd be a tangible difference to set apart a new Leica camera from the "norm". One thing that is true of technology … if you aren't moving forward … you are moving backward. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 15, 2014 Share #323 Posted February 15, 2014 If everyone does the same thing, they usually have very good reasons to do so. Hilarious comment. About 12 years ago I pioneered a new equipment practise in Naval systems, many were not interested, I had the hard sell from status quo suppliers who told me I was wrong but technically my peers managers and customer found it too compelling and it worked brilliantly. Now every Naval systems company has copied what we did some almost to the point its not funny as they copied almost everything they could copy. It has become the de facto standard but I was the first and I am very proud of that. If Leica wants to become a joke of a company they can of course just copy Sony, Olympus et all but with tech already a generation behind. The halo from that red dot will not last forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 15, 2014 Share #324 Posted February 15, 2014 For one thing, leaf shutters would drive up the price of lenses. Also you run into problems when you want to combine a fast shutter speed with a large aperture. The Fuji X100 and X100s have an integrated ND filter to make up for the fact that you cannot use 1/4000 s fully open – you have to stop down to f/8 for the fastest shutter speed. Lens unit prices up Yes, Leica is one of the few companies that could incorporate a higher cost and market it as a positive, consumer level brands can't. This is to their advantage. The X100 has a built in ND filter, well yes it does and its a brilliant feature to have. No need to carry a bag of ND filters for starters and you can shoot wide open in the summer sunlight. Why on earth anyone would want to shoot f/8 at the fastest shutter speed I don't know. I own this camera btw and its unique features are what make so many love it. Also look at all the Medium format film cameras that use leaf shutter lenses. Many love the Mamiya RFs for example, not much bigger than an M and very quiet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 15, 2014 Share #325 Posted February 15, 2014 According to my knowledge the NEX mount is open source. It would allow direct comparisons of lenses! Wouldn´t it be an advantage for Leica? Innovative electronics company, Leica lenses for the NEX, etc. On the other hand Novoflex and others adapter manufacturers will be pleased. Jan You mean like the Panaleica lenses? Pretty good lenses too, but only the Digilux2 zoom has reached legendary status. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted February 15, 2014 Share #326 Posted February 15, 2014 Maybe they could use some of that legendary German engineering and make a camera that doesn't use a mechanical shutter. (I am writing from Munich.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 15, 2014 Share #327 Posted February 15, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If that were true, then Leica would have made a focal plane shutter S2 instead of a dual shutter camera with sync to 1/1000 and CS lenses. There is a place for lenses with leaf shutters, but not within a mirrorless APS-C system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 15, 2014 Share #328 Posted February 15, 2014 The X100 has a built in ND filter, well yes it does and its a brilliant feature to have. No need to carry a bag of ND filters for starters and you can shoot wide open in the summer sunlight. Yep, that’s the kind of situation where you need to activate the ND filter as the camera would overexpose otherwise. Having that option is nice (I own an X10 which unfortunately is missing an ND filter), but you wouldn’t really need it if you could use every shutter speed with every f-stop. When Fuji developed the X camera system, they opted against leaf shutters. I guess they didn’t want to put leaf shutters and ND filters into every lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 15, 2014 Share #329 Posted February 15, 2014 Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. While you can try to achieve both goals (and as far as I know Leica does), you have to diversify your portfolio so you have different products addressing different needs. This is the key problem: the design of a complete -well thought- portfolio of products. A new APS-C based system does not exclude future developments in other categories of the portfolio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 16, 2014 Share #330 Posted February 16, 2014 If everyone does the same thing, they usually have very good reasons to do so. Quite often the reason is they're not thinking outside the box, or they're afraid of stepping outside the box. IMHO if they want to stand out from the crowd they shouldn't follow the crowd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 16, 2014 Share #331 Posted February 16, 2014 There is a place for lenses with leaf shutters, but not within a mirrorless APS-C system. Who says? Again, I'm not talking about APSc … if that ship has sailed, so be it … all I can say is good luck Leica. The discussion is also about future products and what the possibilities are to distinguish Leica from the crowd … some of whom are making advancements that are hardly "me too" solutions. Maybe leaf shutters, maybe not … it's just a thought. BTW, ND filters to force stopping down at higher shutter speeds is probably because the leaf shutter isn't able to sync over the whole wider aperture opening and vignettes badly. Again, not necessary if one simply wants a higher sync speed than 1/200 or 1/250 to control ambient exposures in brighter conditions while using fill flash. 1/1000 is BIG advantage in this case. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 16, 2014 Share #332 Posted February 16, 2014 I'm lost. Why does a leaf shutter need ND filters more than a focal plane shutter? Is it because a focal plane shutter is limited to max shutter speed of 1/1000? I use ND filters. So I might need to use them a stop earlier? Pfft! I'm not going all the way out to f8. I'll use a filter anyway. Sounds like ... smells like ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted February 16, 2014 Share #333 Posted February 16, 2014 Akio Morita, founder of Sony. “The biggest assistance I’ve had is the total failure of nerve on the part of western businessmen to make a move without research.” Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 16, 2014 Share #334 Posted February 16, 2014 Was before the Sony's $1 billion loss forecast i guess Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted February 16, 2014 Share #335 Posted February 16, 2014 The Leica M8 had a flash synch speed of 1/250 second which is only one stop slower than the ubiquitous 1/500 maximum of a typical medium format leaf shutter. Therefore, I don't see any point in developing a system wide series of lenses with leaf shutters. Rather, some further work on refining the focal plane shutter to ensure smooth and quiet operation with a fast synch speed might be a reasonable compromise. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 16, 2014 Share #336 Posted February 16, 2014 HSS would be the way to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 16, 2014 Share #337 Posted February 16, 2014 Got 1/4000s sync speed with my old D70. Why not with Leicas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 16, 2014 Share #338 Posted February 16, 2014 The Leica M8 had a flash synch speed of 1/250 second which is only one stop slower than the ubiquitous 1/500 maximum of a typical medium format leaf shutter. Therefore, I don't see any point in developing a system wide series of lenses with leaf shutters. Rather, some further work on refining the focal plane shutter to ensure smooth and quiet operation with a fast synch speed might be a reasonable compromise. Nick You can go 2 stops faster than that with a smaller format, just look at the X100, The fill flash can be pretty much just left on all the time. There are 4 other advantages to a leaf shutter lens unit design that neatly dovetails with digital sensors and the Leica gestalt: 1) Can be made much more compact than a system using focal plane shutters and typical mounts. Compare Sony A7 and lens versus Rx1 or Fuji X100 versus their X mount cameras. 2) With digital doesn't require a dark slide as the Mamiya film cameras needed, just expose the sensor like all other MILCs do anyway now. 3) Is more or less silent, great for the very thing Leica is supposed to be all about apparently. 4) Gets shot of needless parts in the camera which will be made redundant when global electronic shutter tech eventually comes along, same sort of bet as EVF versus pentaprism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 16, 2014 Share #339 Posted February 16, 2014 The Leica M8 had a flash synch speed of 1/250 second which is only one stop slower than the ubiquitous 1/500 maximum of a typical medium format leaf shutter. Therefore, I don't see any point in developing a system wide series of lenses with leaf shutters. Rather, some further work on refining the focal plane shutter to ensure smooth and quiet operation with a fast synch speed might be a reasonable compromise. Nick That's decades old info Nick. Hasselblad H syncs to 1/800; Leica S to 1/1000, Phase One DF+ to 1/1600. The S and P1-DF+ cameras offer dual shutter options. It is easily conceivable that a dual shutter system could be offered in 35mm format since high meg cameras are beginning to take over many MFD applications. Like Leica and Phase One does with their system … lenses could be offered in FP and CS versions for those that want them. 1/8000 for FP and up to 1/1,250 or higher in CS mode. Leica already knows how to do this …. they do not have to re-invent anything. However, an electronic sensor-shutter may change all that. Remains to be seen. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 16, 2014 Share #340 Posted February 16, 2014 HSS would be the way to go. Sorry, but High Speed Sync is pulsed flash, and is far to weak to be of use in bright outdoor conditions or backlit scenes. It's barely okay for working very close in more moderate lighting situations. The typical speed-light is anywhere from 60 to 80 Ws of energy at full manual, it takes upwards go 600 Ws to balance out the typical bright summer background … more likely 1,200 Ws if the sky is clear. There is a reason all these strobe companies exist. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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