mjh Posted February 14, 2014 Share #301 Posted February 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If your comment were true, then a manufacturer either sells to new customers, or loyal customers - you can't sell to both the loyal customer and new customers. Of course they can, just not the same product. The M is kind of Leica’s flagship product and I think it will stay that way, but that doesn’t mean everything Leica will continue to revolve around the M. A 1 percent market share may not look like such a lofty goal, but Leica won’t attain it with rangefinder cameras alone. They need additions to their product portfolio. New products may or may not appeal to existing M owners, but in any case they won’t be the main target. Expanding market share means to appeal to photographers that would never have considered getting an M. If Leica releases a dud, the loyal will buy it anyway (that's why they're loyal). I would call that stupid rather than loyal. A product is a dud, or not, on its own merits, and because it's a market failure. Isn’t this thread about possible future products that have not been announced yet? We don’t know what these might be, much less about their future success (or lack of it) in the marketplace. Then again, Leica has already solved those problems - it has a proprietary sensor and surely boosting production of that sensor strengthens Leica's relationship with its sole supplier. No, Leica has not fully solved those problems (these are really difficult issues to solve completely I’m afraid). And by the way, Leica currently sources sensors from three suppliers – CMOSIS, Sony, and Truesense Imaging (formerly Kodak). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Hi mjh, Take a look here CEO Alfred Schopf and future products. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted February 14, 2014 Share #302 Posted February 14, 2014 As I said earlier, every new Leica seems to have to be a cheaper M or the existing customers are unhappy. Exactly. And the ill-considered ‘Mini-M’ campaign did only compound this issue. Some customers are clamouring for a cheaper digital rangefinder camera, and have for some time. Others dream of a display-less, bare-bones M, smaller/thinner and probably also cheaper than the Typ 240. Still others think there should be an EVIL, rangefinder-less sister to the M, maybe even as its replacement. But it looks like none of these cheaper Mini Ms are actually forthcoming, neither from Leica nor from Zeiss or Cosina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted February 14, 2014 Share #303 Posted February 14, 2014 But what the hell IS that demographic? There is no focus at all. A few well made (even that's highly debatable lately) ,but realistically and relatively, average performing products at over inflated prices. What customers are they trying to attract? The uber wealthy? It's increasingly apparent that the target demographic is those for whom the price is not an issue and who wish to demonstrate to others that they can easily buy expensive things. For this demographic, performance, while quite good, is secondary so performance and feature comparisons with less costly cameras are pointless; for this demographic the important comparison is the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 14, 2014 Share #304 Posted February 14, 2014 But what the hell IS that demographic? What customers are they trying to attract? The uber wealthy? Do you remember the rumors about the M10 in this forum? Forum members did expect 10k$. They have to open new markets to increase their market share. They could stay high-priced inside that new market. For the somewhat less over wealthy customers. There is a fresh wind blowing (in $$$$). New factory, etc. For us super wealthy customers it would be bad, if they would not survive. I wonder, why the T-line has to be different from the X-line. Marketing knows??? Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 14, 2014 Share #305 Posted February 14, 2014 Do you remember the rumors about the M10 in this forum? Forum members did expect 10k$. I certainly do remember. Back then, the new M was expected to be ridiculously expensive. Yes, a Leica is an expensive camera. It always has been. But it isn’t a camera just for the ‘uber wealthy’. I wonder, why the T-line has to be different from the X-line. Marketing knows??? The rumours started by Alfred Schopf are about a system camera, i.e. a camera with interchangable lenses. The X series models are compact cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14, 2014 Share #306 Posted February 14, 2014 Of course they can, just not the same product. The M is kind of Leica’s flagship product and I think it will stay that way, but that doesn’t mean everything Leica will continue to revolve around the M. A 1 percent market share may not look like such a lofty goal, but Leica won’t attain it with rangefinder cameras alone. They need additions to their product portfolio. New products may or may not appeal to existing M owners, but in any case they won’t be the main target. Expanding market share means to appeal to photographers that would never have considered getting an M. I don't think anyone is suggesting another rangefinder. And by the way, Leica currently sources sensors from three suppliers – CMOSIS, Sony, and Truesense Imaging (formerly Kodak). So which would you chose? What is the demographic you're aiming for? I'd see little demand for another Truesense CCD based camera. No live view, so it would either need a mirror or a rangefinder ... The CMOSIS is the only full frame sensor which deals properly with all Leica lenses, with the short register distance a small mirror less camera requires. Ask Rick (and countless others) about image quality with this sensor and Leica lenses. That's quite a feat when the World's biggest sensor manufacturer, Sony, couldn't achieve it with their fabulous A7. From a security of supply perspective, the more Leica orders its proprietary sensor, the safer future M supplies are. Quality goes up, the price comes down, and there becomes space for innovation. A Sony sensor really only means APS-C, or smaller doesn't it? How many other companies does Sony supply with these sensors? So what does Leica bring to this? Electronics? What can Leica bring to this crowded market sector (which apparently is not growing) that will bring it to 1%? Pretty packaging and a silly high price? Lenses. Yet Leica struggled to release the S lenses and to maintain supplies of M lenses. So will their new line of T mount AF lenses for APS-C (primes and zooms) be made in Germany, or designed there and made in Japan ... You clearly know what this camera will be, so I'll leave it to you to fill in the blanks, but having bought 3 Leica cameras and 11 M mount lenses (all at close to $100,000) over the last 3 years, you are right that this camera will not be for me. If it was CMOSIS based, with an M mount, it would be. I might even look at a new Leica AF lens. Such a camera would also draw customers to the M camera. Would it cost more than the APS-C? Pricing isn't my thing, but they have the sensor and the mount already, and lenses available. They'd only be developing an AF zoom and maybe a couple of AF primes, rather than an entire new line with a new mount. For market growth, which camera is going to be more attractive to a new Leica customer? Another APS-C camera, prettier but more expensive and with less than state of the art electronics, with new Leica lenses? Or a full frame mirrorless, with new AF lenses and the ability to take a huge range of legacy M lenses? The success of the A7 suggests the latter. Huge demand. Leica would charge more, but has the better sensor and better lenses ... I will be completely wrong, because Leica will probably take the existing X format, add the T mount and develop the AF T lenses from scratch. From a market perspective, it will sit alongside the X2 and X-Vario. They're all Sony APS-C ... and not particularly adventurous. Where the A7 has set the market alight, Leica runs the risk of joining Hasselblad standing out only for the silly price it wants for another me too product. Granted, it won't be a rebadged Sony, but it will have the same sensor. Will the lenses be enough? I do find this armchair very comfortable. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 14, 2014 Share #307 Posted February 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) .. ...because Leica will probably take the existing X format, add the T mount and develop the AF T lenses from scratch. If they are of the quality of the XVario's files and lens (albeit hopefully a bit faster) then the T-system may sell well to people who are more than happy with sub-FF sensor cameras (this is not to disparage them in any way) and who will pay for a modern beautifully designed & finished compact Leica camera system. In the same way that Leica FF images have 'that look' and quality, those from the XVario (and T system) do have (or may well have) 'that look'. There are a number of very serious photographers, including professionals, who have presented absolutely beautiful photographs from the XVario here in the Forum. Personally, I think Leica really stuffed up by not fitting an internal EVF to the XVario (even if they had maintained the option of also fitting an external EVF. Like you I'm primarily interested in using my lenses at the FL they were designed for and I have been spoiled by FF image quality, so I don't think the T system would be for me. I agree with you that I could be interested in a FF M-mount Leica with inbuilt EVF that would also take Leica-R and other lenses - ie a Leica-built AR7 with a sensor tuned to M-lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14, 2014 Share #308 Posted February 14, 2014 True, but here's a question. If you look at the incredible interest there was here (and maybe elsewhere) when we all thought the "mini M" was going to be a smaller version of the M camera, without the optical viewfinder, and if you look at the success of the RX-1 and the A7, where is the potential market stronger? Full frame or APS-C? and where does Leica have the advantage? I take your point on built in EVF, but this is their achilles heal. The view finder is where the photographer composes and assesses the shot - if it's flawed, it compromises the process. Then look at Leica's flagship, the M(240) and its EVF. Same product as the cheaper Olympus version, and quickly superseded by the next Olympus version with no future compatibility. Actually, look at the comments here about Leica's electronics generally. I love my M9, but its electronics were the source of considerable complaint here. If you're in an electronic industry (which digital cameras are), this is really pretty average. Now, if I had an M(240), I'd shrug and say the EVF is okay, and I still have the Rangefinder. I wouldn't have a choice. Now, what is the new T system going to be like? If it's APS-C, Leica is going to have to match some pretty flash electronics from electronics companies. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 14, 2014 Share #309 Posted February 14, 2014 The success of the A7 suggests the latter. Huge demand. Leica would charge more, but has the better sensor and better lenses ... John Do you think, they dare to take the NEX-mount? I fear, another incompatible mount is coming. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 14, 2014 Share #310 Posted February 14, 2014 I fear, another incompatible mount is coming. Every mount is incompatible (with every other mount). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14, 2014 Share #311 Posted February 14, 2014 Do you think, they dare to take the NEX-mount? I fear, another incompatible mount is coming. Jan No Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 14, 2014 Share #312 Posted February 14, 2014 Other than the form factor, maybe we should stop dragging the A7/A7R comparisons into conversations about Leica's future. Sony didn't build the A7s to sell Leica M lenses or appease M owner's desire to use their lenses on something other than a M Rangefinder. The A7 & A7R are what they are, and while it's great that we can use "some" of our M lenses on it, that wasn't the reason it exists … Sony profits are. However, it is undeniable that the rush to see if M lenses worked on the Sony was telling. Lots of blogging, paid articles, and endless threads here and on other forums, does speak to some sense of desire for an alternative. Enough said. If Leica launches a APSc interchangable lens camera with a new set of AF lenses as seems the case, I hope it succeeds with whom ever may be the target audience. Leica is on a roll with two very well thought of premium high performance products in the S and M systems. I'd like to see a third choice that beings something different to the party other than a rangefinder based camera. It think AF is essential to bring in new blood, so the debate simply revolves around the use of a smaller sensor verses a FF one. Leica will do what they will do. Then it is up to the customer to agree or disagree. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share #313 Posted February 14, 2014 SNIP....I do find this armchair very comfortable. Cheers John But John all of the volunteer CEO's harrumphing from their armchairs are interfering with the enjoyment of the event by the rest of the club membership Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 15, 2014 Share #314 Posted February 15, 2014 I am enjoying my armchair. It is so much fun looking into my crystal ball. And what do I see? It says wait til April.:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 15, 2014 Share #315 Posted February 15, 2014 Do you think, they dare to take the NEX-mount? I fear, another incompatible mount is coming. Jan It would be bit rash, seeing that Sony holds the patent to this mount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 15, 2014 Share #316 Posted February 15, 2014 Other than the form factor, maybe we should stop dragging the A7/A7R comparisons into conversations about Leica's future. Sony didn't build the A7s to sell Leica M lenses or appease M owner's desire to use their lenses on something other than a M Rangefinder. The A7 & A7R are what they are, and while it's great that we can use "some" of our M lenses on it, that wasn't the reason it exists … Sony profits are. All true. I didn't say here that it was. My reference to the A7 had nothing to do with M lenses, but to point out the success of a full frame EVIL. The bulk of A7 sales will have had little or nothing to do with Leica lenses. Anyway, I've said my bit. Let's see what happens. The real point I was trying to make (it seems badly) is that technically, there is no real difficulty (in my view) for Leica to make an EVIL camera full frame. Actually, Leica has an advantage in that field, and there seems (to me) to be considerable demand. Considerably more than joining the APS-C field with a luxury contribution. Granted, they can offer lenses others will challenge to match - maybe that's enough, with ho-hum electronics. But John all of the volunteer CEO's harrumphing from their armchairs are interfering with the enjoyment of the event by the rest of the club membership It will be interesting, to a point. Sorry to have raised some suggestions which run counter to what Leica seems to be thinking, and to have questioned and challenged the received wisdom here. Rocking the boat can be so unpleasant for you, I'm sure; and heaven help actually having a conversation ... Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted February 15, 2014 Share #317 Posted February 15, 2014 Keep in mind that plenty of car companies make nice sedans over a wde range of prices. That doesn't stop companies from making new models. Even though the market is already well served, Leica could carve out a piece of the APS EVIL market and probably should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted February 15, 2014 Share #318 Posted February 15, 2014 It would be bit rash, seeing that Sony holds the patent to this mount. According to my knowledge the NEX mount is open source. It would allow direct comparisons of lenses! Wouldn´t it be an advantage for Leica? Innovative electronics company, Leica lenses for the NEX, etc. On the other hand Novoflex and others adapter manufacturers will be pleased. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted February 15, 2014 Share #319 Posted February 15, 2014 There is actually one APS-C niche or MILC niche which no one rather bizarelly has exploited yet, and its a simple old fashioned idea. Leaf shutter lenses. One of the truly great things about the Fuji X100 line has been the fantastic fill flash which can be used pretty much any time, Fuji just recently announced a rather huge and heavy looking 50 f2 teleconverter for the X100 to partner up with the already large and heavy wide angle convertor. They really do seem to have screwed up with the X mount line and X100 line when its increasingly clear they probably could and should have killed both birds with one stone. Fuji can't do that now without massively alienating existing customers but Leica could and it would be a genuinely interesting different product in todays market place. Actually when one stands back and looks at the current MILC systems you have to ask why on earth haven't they used leaf shutter units? Its almost like the manufacturers just raided their existing parts bins and technology but ended up driving themselves down particular cul-de-sacs which don't really deliver much of an advantage over other existing systems or have other inherent flaws. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share #320 Posted February 15, 2014 SNIP...It will be interesting, to a point. Sorry to have raised some suggestions which run counter to what Leica seems to be thinking, and to have questioned and challenged the received wisdom here. Rocking the boat can be so unpleasant for you, I'm sure; and heaven help actually having a conversation ... Cheers John John, the conversation includes different viewpoints, That is how it ought to be. No boat rocking or unpleasantness, at least not from my perspective. Agreeing to disagree is a normal thread outcome. I just tried to reply in the light hearted tone where you'd told us you were enjoying being an armchair CEO, hence the smilies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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