Jeff S Posted February 13, 2014 Share #281 Posted February 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive. While you can try to achieve both goals (and as far as I know Leica does)…. Don't you really mean "is NOT mutually exclusive," so as to tie together these two thoughts? They needn't achieve both goals with the same product, but surely they need to simultaneously address both camps, each with new and better products. Otherwise they may eventually find themselves with just one camp…not the one that helped create the high price foundation. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here CEO Alfred Schopf and future products. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted February 13, 2014 Share #282 Posted February 13, 2014 ....Yep, prejudging. Yep, it will be a dud... Never got a Leica dud so far. Why being so pessimistic? Some of us are indeed interested in a little crop cam fitting our M lenses and a couple AF lenses. Others have plenty of choice at Solms and elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted February 13, 2014 Share #283 Posted February 13, 2014 ................Bugger all to do with photography, or actually gaining 1% of the PHOTOGRAPHY market. Yep, prejudging. Yep, it will be a dud. Cheers John All in your (not so) humble opinion of course . Since you used the word bugger, may I suggest that you're being a miserable one at the moment .....it's a proposed new camera release, what is there to get so worked up about now? It'll be out soon enough and then the fun and games will start in earnest....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 13, 2014 Share #284 Posted February 13, 2014 All in your (not so) humble opinion of course . Since you used the word bugger, may I suggest that you're being a miserable one at the moment .....it's a proposed new camera release, what is there to get so worked up about now? It'll be out soon enough and then the fun and games will start in earnest....... No, Steve - not worked up. That's far from a pretty sight. I will be the first to eat humble pie if Leica departs from its track record delivers something really special. They can, and they have, but I'm not at all optimistic. Why? Well, Leica Mini M is a good starting point ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 13, 2014 Share #285 Posted February 13, 2014 Indeed. Please don't. Why ever not? Look, I'd be the first to cut people slack. But once they have not lived up to my expectations, I don't expect too much and I see no reason expressing my view. When some one as clearly in the know as Michael says their next camera will be APS-C, I fully expect that to be true. If you like that idea, then go for it. I don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 13, 2014 Share #286 Posted February 13, 2014 APS-C is an excellent format. Works fine with my R-D1 and crop Nikons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share #287 Posted February 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think I will check back into my thread when there is an actual camera announced and described although I doubt anyone's viewpoints here will change. Whatever exact form the new system takes it would be complete by now and the criticisms and opinions won't influence that one iota. I think that Michael has the right of it. This is Leica Camera expanding into different market positions, aiming at more new customers, not competing with nor undercutting the current systems nor aiming primarily at those systems' customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 13, 2014 Share #288 Posted February 13, 2014 I think that Michael has the right of it. This is Leica Camera expanding into different market positions, aiming at more new customers, not competing with nor undercutting the current systems nor aiming primarily at those systems' customers. But he said those two strategies were mutually exclusive, i.e, Leica can't address both audiences at the same time. One hopes, however, that they're simultaneously working on products to address both customer bases, even if the products aren't released at the same time….although that would be nice, too...as would just being timely (and without problems) in general. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 13, 2014 Share #289 Posted February 13, 2014 Nothing wrong with APSC, I use Canons with that type of sensor and actually decided to stay with it instead of going FF recently. Now imagine if the Leica T were a compact sized AF DSLR like a digital R4..... It won't be of course! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 13, 2014 Share #290 Posted February 13, 2014 Hi James, While APS-C may suit you, that is not the case for everyone. I like my lenses to be full frame format, I like the files that full frame format delivers (I have 4 digital cameras, all full frame). The sales of full frame format digital cameras suggest I am not alone ... I agree entirely that the decision to go APS-C on this camera has been made. All of us live in the hope we can influence the next decision. As for the market sector, I am baffled by the statements here that there is space for a new Leica in that segment. I haven't counted up the numbers of APS-C cameras, but a search of DP Review (I know) reveals pretty much every manufacturer - Pentax Ricoh, Fuji, Sony, Canon, Nikon, Samsung - that looks like a pretty crowded space to me. The Japanese imaging manufacturing association (CIPA) report for 2013 makes interesting reading. In the 6 months to June, there was a drop of 43% in digital cameras shipped from Japan (down to 30 million). Production (built in lens) compacts fell by half - mostly point and shoot cameras suffering from cellphone quality, presumably. dSLR and mirrorless interchangeable also showed a decline of 18.5%. Of 30 million cameras shipped, 22.4 million were point and shoot, 6 million dSLR. 1.2 million EVIL. Meanwhile, the Sony A7 has stormed onto the market since that review (with many reviewers awarding it camera of the year for 2013). Sony Alpha Rumours claims preorders were 200% more than expected (whatever that means). So, yes, if APS-C floats your boat, go for it. What information we get from market sales does suggest that APS-C EVIL is a very crowded part of the market where Leica's most obvious point of difference will be price. Cheers John (Armchair CEO) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 13, 2014 Share #291 Posted February 13, 2014 And just imagine the now released Sony A6000 for US$650 here. Add a Metabones E to M adapter (US$90) and it will take M lenses. How many of those will "work" well is still unknown, but it would seem the APS-C crop factor will mitigate most problems M lenses could present on any APS-C camera body. Add that the A6000 is rated as the fastest AF camera out, that will be a hard act to follow IMHO for any company in or entering the interchangeable lens APS-C marketplace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 13, 2014 Share #292 Posted February 13, 2014 So, a great product would not attract new buyers and loyal customers? What has loyalty got to do with it? If a product is clearly not for me, why should I buy it? Being a loyal customer doesn’t equate to blindly buying everything, whether I need or not. And being a loyal customer while realising that a new product isn’t for me doesn’t imply it’s a dud. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 14, 2014 Share #293 Posted February 14, 2014 What has loyalty got to do with it? If a product is clearly not for me, why should I buy it? Being a loyal customer doesn’t equate to blindly buying everything, whether I need or not. And being a loyal customer while realising that a new product isn’t for me doesn’t imply it’s a dud. Sorry, Michael. I must have misunderstood your earlier comment that "Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive." If your comment were true, then a manufacturer either sells to new customers, or loyal customers - you can't sell to both the loyal customer and new customers. That is patently not true. Loyal Leicaists bought the M9, and many new people came to Leica because of the M9 (including me). If Leica releases a dud, the loyal will buy it anyway (that's why they're loyal). If it's a good product, the loyal will buy it and new people will be attracted. Loyalty was your point, I thought. Being loyal does mean that you are forgiving of mistakes. That may extend to blindly buying whatever comes along, but usually it would be a bit less, like not buying blindly, but buying optimistically or just defending poor decisions ... A product is a dud, or not, on its own merits, and because it's a market failure. There are many cases of great products that have failed in the market (M5?). From my armchair perspective, I'd call that a dud. Generally shareholders don't take kindly to giving away their capital in that way. We can be sure that a company that charges USD 24.00 for a plastic lens cap will charge a huge premium for an APS-C based EVIL. So, it might be a dud because it's technically flawed (unlikely), or because it is ridiculously expensive when compared to other products in the market which are as good if not better (not surprising), and therefore doesn't sell - at least not until it is wrapped in exclusive German paper or redesigned by Paul Smith ... It is important to remember that APS-C is a very crowded market (which Sony seems to be de-emphasising, with its downgrading of the NEX line of cameras). As it's APS-C, it won't be for me. It could be a huge success, and outsell the competitors products and be on waiting lists for years (remember the M9?); in which case, it won't be a dud. I'm not holding my breath - the X1, X2 and X-Vario would suggest that I just might be right ... Then again, does this sector know or even care if it's APS-C, as opposed to full frame? And APS-C has the advantage of avoiding corner problems. Then again, Leica has already solved those problems - it has a proprietary sensor and surely boosting production of that sensor strengthens Leica's relationship with its sole supplier. In a world where the future seems to be split smartphone cameras and boutique products (high-end dSLRs, M9 rangefinder, medium format cameras like the S2 etc), I would have thought buyers will care about the difference between full frame and APS-C. Sales of the RX-1 and A7 would support that. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 14, 2014 Share #294 Posted February 14, 2014 What has loyalty got to do with it? If a product is clearly not for me, why should I buy it? Being a loyal customer doesn’t equate to blindly buying everything, whether I need or not. And being a loyal customer while realising that a new product isn’t for me doesn’t imply it’s a dud. Totally agree. I worked with every M camera since the M4 but passed on the M240. Doesn't make it a dud. Just makes it not for me. However, I do not believe that a camera that would appeal to many Leica loyal, couldn't also be a good seller to new buyers who may not have been drawn in by a manual focus rangefinder. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 14, 2014 Share #295 Posted February 14, 2014 Sorry, Michael. I must have misunderstood your earlier comment that "Expanding market share beyond the existing customer base and at the same time trying to please existing customers is mutually exclusive." Cheers John I think Michael was referring to the range of products not that every new product should appeal to existing customers. Leica aren't dropping the M (existing customers) for their new camera (new customers). As I said earlier, every new Leica seems to have to be a cheaper M or the existing customers are unhappy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 14, 2014 Share #296 Posted February 14, 2014 So, yes, if APS-C floats your boat, go for it. What information we get from market sales does suggest that APS-C EVIL is a very crowded part of the market where Leica's most obvious point of difference will be price. Cheers John (Armchair CEO) Hi John, In my post I referred to APSC DLSR's not EVIL. I imagine such a camera (weather sealed body/lenses, think mini S) would do better for Leica than a 'me too' EVIL type but hey, that's only my opinion. Leica must know the/their market better than any of us so they'll do what they think is best, but I suspect that will mean an X type body with interchangeable lenses and a bolt on EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 14, 2014 Share #297 Posted February 14, 2014 I think Michael was referring to the range of products not that every new product should appeal to existing customers. Leica aren't dropping the M (existing customers) for their new camera (new customers). As I said earlier, every new Leica seems to have to be a cheaper M or the existing customers are unhappy. James, if your last sentence is actually true, then wouldn't it indicate some form of pent up demand? However, I think it may only be partially true because nothing is ever that simple. I'm sure many existing M customers use other forms of cameras out of specific need, and I believe they would be interested in something from Leica that filled that need. Such a camera most certainly would also appeal to new customers for a few reasons … chief amongst them is Auto Focus Leica lenses. As M users always advise newbies contemplating a M, "Rangefinders aren't for everyone". If RFs aren't for everyone, what from Leica is? Nothing, and should always be nothing because Leica itself is not for everyone. The minute Leica says APSc, or that "not all the lenses can be made in Germany" because of price … it sounds like they are back-sliding. IMO, they need a new camera/lens system the equal of the M to blaze a parallel path into the future. As I mentioned before, Rangefinder users don't confuse the two very different type of cameras and different shooting experiences … but often use both. New customers can be won with an alternative experience, premium level camera with core attributes based on Leica's strengths … tactile solidity, high performance sensor, and optical excellence. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 14, 2014 Share #298 Posted February 14, 2014 James, if your last sentence is actually true, then wouldn't it indicate some form of pent up demand? However, I think it may only be partially true because nothing is ever that simple. IMO, they need a new camera/lens system the equal of the M to blaze a parallel path into the future. New customers can be won with an alternative experience, premium level camera with core attributes based on Leica's strengths … tactile solidity, high performance sensor, and optical excellence. - Marc Marc, Ever since I joined this forum, back in the days when M's were only film cameras, people have been asking for a cheaper version "Leica need to make a new CL with cheaper lenses if they are to survive" - I read that many times. My response was mostly along the lines of the cheaper options exist - Voigtlanders, or secondhand Leica. I also said we buy Leica M's (film remember) for their build quality and feel, again why wasn't everyone buying Voigtlanders as the cheaper option? I said if Leica did make a 'cheap' version people would then complain that it wasn't really a Leica and everyone would aspire to the 'real' thing. Leica did respond in part, by producing the Summarit range of lenses - look what most people think about those. I know they're fine lenses but the perception is they're somehow not as good, made from plastic, won't last. Leica are in a difficult position with their brand - people expect premium and are disappointed when it's anything less. Again, look at all the nonsense over the years about the PanaLeica's, some people refuse to believe that they are the same as a Panasonic under the skin. No these are hand made cameras that oddly share some similar specs to the Panasonics! They've paid more money and expect something 'better' (although they don't know what better means but post images saying they have the Leica glow and the Panasonic images are lifeless and flat in comparision). It's a lot about perception. The PanaLeica's got Leica out of a hole financially and are no doubt still lucrative for them, but they do need more unique products - the PanaLeica type models are the ones that are suffering sales-wise. I completely agree with your other point however, Leica do need to think about where they're taking the M, and a new AF camera system to run alongside it must surely be in their minds. Something for buyers of the new T to aspire to in the future.....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 14, 2014 Share #299 Posted February 14, 2014 It feels like a steadily increasing number of us are no longer in that target demographic... Sent from another Galaxy But what the hell IS that demographic? There is no focus at all. A few well made (even that's highly debatable lately) ,but realistically and relatively, average performing products at over inflated prices. What customers are they trying to attract? The uber wealthy? that's even more of a minority - perhaps the marketing genius who came up with the Mini M campaign also advised them how to to resolve their poor supply chain Having spent a lot of money on Leica, don't have a problem with expensive prices, IF, and only if, the product is worthy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted February 14, 2014 Share #300 Posted February 14, 2014 And just imagine the now released Sony A6000 for US$650 here. Add a Metabones E to M adapter (US$90) and it will take M lenses. How many of those will "work" well is still unknown, but it would seem the APS-C crop factor will mitigate most problems M lenses could present on any APS-C camera body. Add that the A6000 is rated as the fastest AF camera out, that will be a hard act to follow IMHO for any company in or entering the interchangeable lens APS-C marketplace. 1+ Plus A6000 is fitted with built in EVF. New 16-70mm (24-105) f4 AF Zeiss Zoom doesn't look shabby either - total (camera & lens) pre-release price in UK £1400. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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