Mornnb Posted March 9, 2015 Share #901 Posted March 9, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I agree that Leica has done a fantastic job making a digital camera in a traditional camera form. That is what attracted me to Leica in the first place. Cracked sensors, delaminating cover glass and cover glass corrosion on the M9 series of cameras discouraged me, failing to maintain supplies for the M8 LCD alarmed me, and ongoing issues with the M(240) electronics didn't help (people complaining about WB, lock-ups and banding). What appealed to me about the M(240) is the sensor and the revised rangefinder. The rest, I didn't really like. Cluttering up Leica's flagship camera with a bigger LCD (I use mine on the Monochrom only for menu settings, which I don't actually need with the M60), an average EVF, focus peaking which is ultimately not as good as the rangefinder and indifferent video struck me as diluting the Leica experience. It also struck me as odd that for a premium camera, these options would be less than stellar. That said, I do like the idea that you can use lenses wider than 21 and longer than 90 using live view. That opens up long tele, zoom and macro, which is a good thing. But then, I actually don't go wider than 21mm or longer than 90mm, so all this is of limited appeal. Back when I was using my Nikon FM2, my 180/2 was the longest lens I used. For all that electronic trickery, I think the T is a better platform - it is an electronic camera through and through, though sadly misses out by not being full frame. Compared to the M cameras, the price is more in line with electronic componentry, and I will be more likely to feel I've got my money's worth after 10 years. Cheers John I must say I disagree. Features like a large high res LCD, liveview and focus peaking rather than being tech trickery are fundamental and basic features of a modern digital camera that are quite beneficial in terms of assisting the photographer. The Leica is not a museum piece it needs to be a fully functional modern digital camera and a classic rangefinder at the same time. With the M240 Leica finally got the balance right between old and new. It respects the past and builds the future at the same time. Granted though that there is room for improvement in the video mode and with the EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Hi Mornnb, Take a look here What do you want in the next digital M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share #902 Posted March 9, 2015 The 'jury was out' was a reference to the lock-up issues. Nobody knows what causes them….for those relatively few who have complained. So the M60 may be susceptible…hopefully not. As I've noted, the M60 is an M240, sans screen and strap lugs. I doubt you or I would be able to distinguish the innards. I certainly wouldn't have the vaguest idea of what I was looking at inside either camera! From what I've read, I'd be very surprised if I get any lock-ups. The camera doesn't generate JPGs, it doesn't have a continuous shoot button and it has the larger 2GB processor. The firmware is doing so little, I'd be amazed if it becomes an issue. I will post here if it does. So far, I'm hugely impressed with the quality of the files that come from the camera (though it is perhaps not immediately apparent from my processing skills). The colours, the detail - so far it all looks very good indeed. I'd have to say that having only ISO (set at 200 by default), aperture, shutter and focusing is a huge relief. For me, no other feature or adjustment has any relevance to the images I want to take. They're just things I'll get wrong and wonder why I set them like that. I find the Monochrom similarly liberating, though for different reasons. With that, I set the aperture and the shutter and leave the ISO on Auto. Again, no JPGs and I never shoot continuous, so I've had no issues. I am more than a little worried about the sensor, though. This is such a brilliant camera. Really amazing. I hope the M(240) version is as good, though will you really want video, live view, focus peaking and the rest with a monochromatic sensor? Long may Leica be able to replace my CCD sensor! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share #903 Posted March 9, 2015 Features like a large high res LCD, liveview and focus peaking rather than being tech trickery are fundamental and basic features of a modern digital camera that are quite beneficial in terms of assisting the photographer. I have never said that Leica shouldn't change, or keep up with the times. What I have said, though, is that for the price they need to make sure that such features are state of the art and add to the overall experience. I don't think any of these things make the M a better camera. The features you list may assist you with your photography, but they don't assist me. I don't need an LCD as I don't chimp, the framing in the view finder is good enough and I have no menu settings. Live view is fine for those lenses that aren't rangefinder coupled, but I don't need it, and focus peaking isn't as good as the rangefinder (focus peaking on the Nex and A7 seemed very good, but the pictures were less than impressive compared to the rangefinder). More critically, not one of the features you list, and the ones I dislike, actually have any impact on the final image. The final image is determined purely by composition, focus and exposure. I have everything I need for that, and not a single thing I don't need (except the flash mount, but that has a nice cover on it). Granted, the M(240) has metering options, but I was raised with centre weighted metering - I've used spot meters, matrix meters and zone systems (on my Hasselblad), but I keep coming back to either incident metering or just using centre weighted metering and adjusting the exposure. I was never worried about the weight or thickness of the M9 or the M60, but the shutter sound on the M60 is way nicer (I have to admit) than the M9. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 9, 2015 Share #904 Posted March 9, 2015 Hi Harold, I think you missed the bit where I said "if you take out the CMOSIS sensor and the rangefinder". Me too and poor iteration (from Leica pricing and standards) of video, focus peaking, EVF and general electronics (lock up etc). I have no doubt that many people enjoy video (as you do), focus peaking (Jaap), etc, but it isn't for me and I'm trying to explain why I think the M(240) is confused. It also explains why I made the strange decision (for some) to buy the M60. John Sorry John, we go around the houses on this but you do keep posting that the M240 is poor, so folk who think it isn't like me need to keep putting the opposing view. You views have changed over time. I remember the last time we chatted you settled on 1-2 mm as being the main reason you didn't gell with the M240. and that's fine, its your view. I like the CMOSIS sensor. Its something different and performs very well. Are you seriously suggesting taking out the rangefinder ? that's what we (!!!) like about the M series. And how pray focus with the M60 without it ????? My M240 has never locked up, so I can't agree. Actually I have had 3 M240s and none ever locked up. Not that I don't believe those that do, but Leica has either fixed this in hardware or firmware. Video is a useful additional feature, not meant, obviously as a main feature. Video is rubbish in the X100T, D610, etc. but people find it useful to have. Sony is the only one who does video properly, and you need all sorts of things like flat DR (e.g. sLog) and Zebra, etc. to do it properly. I think Leica did fine by incorporating it. Focus peaking is there if you want it. Ignore it if not. I only used it for R telephoto but I am a big RF fan for 99% of usage. Kai's review on DigitalRev is the most compatible with my opinion, and I disagree with him on many of his reviews. The M240 is anything but confused. Its mechanical parallax photography entering the 21st century. The M240 is so good I really don't think there is much that can tempt me. I am not spoon fed. I would like a 36/50mp sensor, I would like a silent shutter, I would like a built in SIM for 4G to auto upload my photos, I would like 8K video (yes its coming and stills extraction will be a blast), I would like many things but really I am not too bothered at the moment. For what I use my M240 for its close to perfection. All the best Harold Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share #905 Posted March 9, 2015 Harold, the only reason I respond to your posts is not to challenge your position, but to correct what seem to be misrepresentations of mine. It's not that I think the M(240) is poor - the M60 is basically the same camera in its essential functions. The rest is my opinion - I'm allowed my opinion, surely ... Not sure what views you think have changed, and I don't understand what you mean by "1-2 mm as being the main reason you didn't gell with the M240" I've never used the M(240), so I never really had the chance to gel with it. What does 1-2mm mean? My first post in relation to this camera was that it wasn't for me, but that I thought it would sell "like hotcakes". That hasn't changed. I think you must be mistaking me for someone else, or perhaps I'm writing my posts in another language. I love the optical view finder on my M cameras (I have three, with a fourth on the way). For a while, I thought that live view would solve problems with focus shift and framing accuracy, but having tried it, I'm very firmly in the optical view finder camp. Did I mistype something somewhere? I also like the CMOSIS sensor - I've been a big fan of it from the start. I'm not worried about lock-ups (I haven't had any and I don't expect to), but many users here seem to be. It isn't my problem, but it would be dishonest to say that the issue doesn't exist ... I'm very pleased the M(240) works for you - I mean that very sincerely; but at the same time, surely the reasons it wouldn't work for me are equally valid? The best thing is that we both have cameras we're very happy with. That's a good thing. I have no intention of spoiling your pleasure. Best John PS - Ah, I see. When I said "take out the rangefinder and the CMOSIS sensor" above. I wasn't saying remove them from the camera, I was saying if you disregard those items from the comparison. My poor typing. I thought that was clear. I apologise for confusing the discussion. I was looking at the more general issue of the quality of those features (other than the rangefinder and sensor). Does that clarify what I was saying? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 9, 2015 Share #906 Posted March 9, 2015 I hope the M(240) version is as good, though will you really want video, live view, focus peaking and the rest with a monochromatic sensor? Well, since I rarely (video, never) use those things on my M240, I'd be unlikely to use them on a M240-based Monochrom. But I'm so spoiled by the other M240-based benefits (noted above), that I'd never consider the M9-based MM. The smooth shutter release and minimal motor sound alone make the shooting experience much closer to my film Ms. And the add-ons would never intrude. Plus, LV (when turned on) allows for easy camera/lens focus calibration checks…a nice bonus, given that an LCD would be beneficial anyway in case one wants to access the RAW histogram to avoid blown highlights. I wouldn't mind the elimination of video on any future M, but I fear that's just the nature of digital these days. The benefit, I suppose, is that the processor and so forth have to be robust enough to keep up. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted March 9, 2015 Share #907 Posted March 9, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I hope they are not going to make us wait an extra two years for a version without the red dot and frame preview. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted March 9, 2015 Share #908 Posted March 9, 2015 I have never said that Leica shouldn't change, or keep up with the times. What I have said, though, is that for the price they need to make sure that such features are state of the art and add to the overall experience. I don't think any of these things make the M a better camera. The features you list may assist you with your photography, but they don't assist me. I don't need an LCD as I don't chimp, the framing in the view finder is good enough and I have no menu settings. Live view is fine for those lenses that aren't rangefinder coupled, but I don't need it, and focus peaking isn't as good as the rangefinder (focus peaking on the Nex and A7 seemed very good, but the pictures were less than impressive compared to the rangefinder). More critically, not one of the features you list, and the ones I dislike, actually have any impact on the final image. Focus peaking with the zoom mode has value for very controlled situations such as landscape to ensure absolutely precise focus. Liveview/EVF are also incredibly useful for shooting wide angles (like the Tri-Elmar or 12mm Voitlander). So I would disagree that these features have zero impact on the final image, they can be a great aid in getting the shot. The final image is determined purely by composition, focus and exposure. I have everything I need for that, and not a single thing I don't need (except the flash mount, but that has a nice cover on it). Even for normal Rangefinder 35/50mm shooting I like to be able to check the focus and composition on the LCD screen. Granted, the M(240) has metering options, but I was raised with centre weighted metering - I've used spot meters, matrix meters and zone systems (on my Hasselblad), but I keep coming back to either incident metering or just using centre weighted metering and adjusting the exposure. I don't use any of these fancy metering systems they slow the camera down. I use the classic metering mode, and quickly flick on liveview to check the exposure simulation if I suspect a situation that will give the metering difficulties. With exposure simulation there is no need for guess work you can quickly see what the sensor will see. I was never worried about the weight or thickness of the M9 or the M60, but the shutter sound on the M60 is way nicer (I have to admit) than the M9. What I love about the M240 is that, as young photographer born and raised on digital the M240 fits in with my shooting style, the M9 did not. The M9 was the soul of a film camera with digital guts, the M240 represents Leica's full hearted embrace of digital. The charm is that it fully embraces digital, yet keeps digital minimal and manual. Fast access to everything you need and nothing you don't need. Physical dials, no dedicated buttons for superfluous or barely touched features. (except for that damn Movie button, which fortunately can be disabled) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 9, 2015 Share #909 Posted March 9, 2015 Game boy vs baby boom generation? Just kidding. Some of us do not like the idea of unsticking their eye from the viewfinder to take photographs. Remember, HCB, the decisive moment and so on. Matter of tastes as usual but using the LCD during shootings is not the best way to shoot fast if you ask me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share #910 Posted March 9, 2015 Not sure focus peaking gives more accurate results than the rangefinder. My experience is the opposite. You might find Tim Ashley's article interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 9, 2015 Share #911 Posted March 9, 2015 LV and EVF are auxiliary systems, people tend to forget. Of course the camera is best used like a traditional M at the normal RF focal lengths, that is when it performs best. If bought for the extra features whilst ignoring the basic function, one is buying the wrong camera imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted March 9, 2015 Share #912 Posted March 9, 2015 Not sure focus peaking gives more accurate results than the rangefinder. My experience is the opposite. You might find Tim Ashley's article interesting. It's standard practise in digital photography (i.e. DSLRs) to use live view for landscapes because of the focus accuracy. It's not so much the focus peaking but rather the ability to zoom in 100% in live view and see the focus at full resolution. It is a nice feature to now have on a Leica. I would agree that the Rangefinder works best in typical situations. IMHO the LV and EVF are special tools to use for studio/landscape shooting or for ultra wide angles, as well as a handy quick preview of the exposure. But is not a great tool to use for regular shooting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 9, 2015 Share #913 Posted March 9, 2015 You forget the most common use of the EVF: Long lenses and Macro. This EVF works surprisingly well in those disciplines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted March 9, 2015 Share #914 Posted March 9, 2015 I am still bemused regarding IkarusJohn's comments on this thread. The M60 is basically a very pretty M-P 240... without the screen and video functions. All the basic functions are exactly the same as any of us who uses an M240P... without the screen. On my M-P, video is switched off, as is the screen (apart from those rare moments where I change something on the menu, check focus or histogram...). So in actual use, there seems very little difference. The other improvements mentioned, you already know and enjoy... the sensor, the rangefinder (a HUGE improvement over the earlier digital Leica's), so I don't understand why you continue to suggest the 240 'isn't the camera for you'... Although 99.99% of the time I use the rangefinder for focus, focus peaking is actually very useful on a small number of occasions and works exceptionally well once you know how to use it properly... and I use the EVF as if it was an accessory finder, no other time really... Obviously cost isn't an issue, there is no premium to have the added functionality of the M240P over the M60 (and things like video and focus peaking are effectively free once you start using the CMOSIS sensor anyway, its just a matter of allowing the functionality already available in the software that drives it... and it will be in your M60 anyway... just not accessible), so I am not sure why we are still all discussing it. IkarusJohn... whether you like it or not, you HAVE a Leica 240... you just bought one with slightly less functionality and paid a premium for it. If you are happy with that, then good, so am I. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share #915 Posted March 9, 2015 You would be unhappy if I wasn't happy? That's very thoughtful of you! I'm not really sure I can really add to what I've been consistently saying for the 2 and a half years since the M(240) was announced - it's not a camera for me. The fact that I like the M60 and it shares the same sensor and rangefinder doesn't make it the same camera at all. I'm sorry if that isn't clear. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted March 9, 2015 Share #916 Posted March 9, 2015 It's the same camera John... no matter how much you want to deny it... bored now... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 9, 2015 Share #917 Posted March 9, 2015 The fact that I like the M60 and it shares the same sensor and rangefinder doesn't make it the same camera at all. We're all clear that you like it and see it as a different camera, but as I wrote earlier, Leica sees it fundamentally as an M240. From the Leica site describing the M60 set… "The exclusive set comprises a digital Leica M (Type 240) camera and a fast, Leica Summilux-M 35 mm f/1.4 ASPH. lens." It's not just the sensor and RF; everything inside is likely the same, only some things are inaccessible without the screen. If the camera is different operationally, and perhaps 'psychologically', because there is no screen to use or think about, that's relevant for you (and others), but it doesn't change the fact that the camera is a repackaged M240 without the screen. By possible analogy, the Monochrom is based on the M9 and many people report that they like it not just because of the IQ, but because they can shoot b/w without ever thinking about color since the option isn't available. It changes the psychology of shooting. Others, like me, can use the M240 (or M9) and get into the b/w 'zen mode' despite the camera's capacity to also shoot color…we just ignore what we don't need. In the case of the MM, though, the innards are different, and so are the resultant files; with the M60, the files are identical to the M240. Different strokes….no right or wrong, which is why choices are good. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted March 9, 2015 Share #918 Posted March 9, 2015 From Leica's own webpage... Not reinvented, reimagined. The anniversary of the birth of a legendary camera sees the appearance of the LEICA M Edition “LEICA 60”, a strictly limited special edition uniting the best of the past and future. The special edition was created by Audi Design, and transforms a classic into a visionary concept. An homage to the essence of the art of photography and a return to its origins, in perfect unison with the future of digital photography. The exclusive set comprises a digital Leica M (Type 240) camera and a fast, Leica Summilux-M 35 mm f/1.4 ASPH. lens. Edit: SNAP!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted March 9, 2015 Share #919 Posted March 9, 2015 The exclusive set comprises a digital Leica M (Type 240) camera [...] It is probably an M-P Typ 240 motherboard, RF, and shutter assembly in a different case. Even the firmware might be the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 9, 2015 Share #920 Posted March 9, 2015 This thread (and a number of other similar ones) could be a casebook for behavioural psychologists. How can any Leica owner challenge another for choosing a camera that is limited in functionality and overpriced compared to notionally comparable cameras? :D:D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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