naturephoto1 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2781 Posted November 25, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some argue that you would need the EVF and the grip on the M240 for it to be a fair comparison. I have both. The Sony feels lighter, and it's narrower width (left to right dimension when viewed from the top) together with it's grip make it feel considerably smaller than the M240 in the hand. In addition, from my handling both cameras, the M240 needs the the Grip to handle and balance as well the A7r with heavier R lenses. Additionally to use the M240 with the R lenses you require the EVF (at least for most of us and most appliations) to use the heavier R lenses. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 25, 2013 Posted November 25, 2013 Hi naturephoto1, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jaybob Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2782 Posted November 25, 2013 Compare camera dimensions side by side Personally I love the above mentioned site. Comparisons of D3 and NEX 6, amazing. I am confident you can achieve great results with R glass, I've had great results adapting M mount lenses on Sony bodies for quite some time. I'm just not holding out much hope that it'll feel balanced in your hand, the way an R8 would. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2783 Posted November 25, 2013 ……….But I'm pissed that Leica will abandon me and my M9 and Monochrom before I've got my money's worth (Oh, in about 40 years). ……….. I reckon I get my money's worth out of a Leica at about the same rate as on any other camera I've ever owned, as ought to be the case; that's how these things work. The re-sale value takes all that into account and comes close to equalising the cost of ownership. If you find more value in keeping than selling (as applies to any asset), I think it's hard to argue that you are not getting value, since there's a financial alternative available the whole time, i.e. the sale price, which you judge to be less attractive than retaining ownership. The point is, it's your choice. So it comes down to what the camera does for you personally far more than what value-for-money it offers, as though that were an objective measure, which it is not. I think the cost argument, providing you have access to the initial outlay, is not terribly relevant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2784 Posted November 25, 2013 Can't agree, Peter. Much as I love my Monochrom, at NZD12,000, I expect more commitment from Leica than it appears I'm likely to get. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2785 Posted November 25, 2013 John, I thought their commitment was for "at least ten years beyond the date when production ceases. " Or is this wrong? I wouldn't want to be paying Leica or any other digital camera maker the amount of cash they'd need to make it viable for them to offer even longer support. Ten years+ seems very reasonable and practical to me. Or am I missing the point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2786 Posted November 25, 2013 John, I thought their commitment was for "at least ten years beyond the date when production ceases. " Or is this wrong? I wouldn't want to be paying Leica or any other digital camera maker the amount of cash they'd need to make it viable for them to offer even longer support. Ten years+ seems very reasonable and practical to me. Or am I missing the point? We know that Leica can not repair everything 10 years after going out of production. Case and point, they do not have all of the electronics and other parts as I understand it for the DMR; they can only do some servicing. That and the whole R system was only discontinued in 2009 and here it is 2013. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hossegor Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2787 Posted November 25, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) i tried the A7R at my local photoshop today, heres an OOC JPG with the Nocti 0.95. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2788 Posted November 25, 2013 John, I thought their commitment was for "at least ten years beyond the date when production ceases. " Or is this wrong? I wouldn't want to be paying Leica or any other digital camera maker the amount of cash they'd need to make it viable for them to offer even longer support. Ten years+ seems very reasonable and practical to me. Or am I missing the point? The 10 year commitment was only given after they were caught with their pants down over the M8 LCDs - something they were less than candid about. I'm not sure longer support costs more - we pay for the support anyway. It's not a case of extended warranties, but supply chain management. When a company invests a lot of time and money in a product, you don't just assume that your component suppliers will continue to supply at a price you like, or that they will maintain stock on the shelf. You get binding commitments on pricing, support and inventory, and you monitor performance. If the supplier then either goes out of business or decides to discontinue your parts because it's no longer economic to make them, your agreement should enable you to take over designs, tooling, and all intellectual property (including base code for software) to enable you to get someone else to make the parts you need. While this may seem to be far-fetched, it's what I negotiate for a living (among other things). So, if you (still) say your product is "for life", you have the contractual rights and parts in place to live up to that promise. As Jaap acknowledges, we don't actually need faster, bigger, flashier as the 18 MP CCD sensor was actually capable of doing what most of us need. It is hardly inconsistent with the Leica model to continue to manufacture a perfectly good camera with minor improvements (they did that for almost 50 years, between the M3 and M7). That is consistent with a quality, premium priced product. It is also in line with the global move away from consumerism and throwaway product design. Conversely, if your position is that these are nothing more than electronics, and you ditch them after 3 years, or 10 (don't know about your cameras, but after 10 years, my Leicas will still look almost like new), then Sony's approach is more honest and reasonable. Very good electronics, packaged and priced accordingly. Sony will probably have something totally revolutionary in 10 years, but my A7R will still be going - any other Sony product has lasted as long. The M8 isn't 10 years old yet ... Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2789 Posted November 25, 2013 It would have been nice if Leica offered a revolutionary service to take in say an M8 and fit a much more modern sensor and processor but they don't offer such a service. Shame really as for once it would have been a true innovation, instead we are stuck with an ancient RF design. Even Fuji with their fake RF the X-pro 1 managed to put in a switchable optical magnification. You see this is my frustration with Leica, I don't really care for a RF camera with a clip on EVF or Live view as there will always be cheaper and potentially better options from those who specialise in that stuff (like Sony). What frustrates me is the core component of what makes an M has barely changed in half a century and is still lacking basic functionality. This is not purity but stubborn arrogance to be frank, people used to say the same thing about Porsche but they almost went bust and since have produced not just a finely engineered product but have consistently been market leaders in the engineering department. Anyways after reading all this stuff here and elsewhere and debating all the options in my mind I think I know what I am going to do. I will buy a film M, probably an M6 to keep for the next 20 years and will go with an A7 for digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2790 Posted November 25, 2013 10 years may be too long in the digital era, but it is shocking that they already ran out of parts for a camera that is still in production under the form of an M-E. I don't really buy that unless it's a strategic decision not to service the M9 in order to keep parts available for the MM and M-E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2791 Posted November 25, 2013 10 years may be too long in the digital era, but it is shocking that they already ran out of parts for a camera that is still in production under the form of an M-E. I don't really buy that unless it's a strategic decision not to service the M9 in order to keep parts available for the MM and M-E. Out of parts for M9 ? Where has this been reported ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2792 Posted November 25, 2013 The 10 year commitment was only given after they were caught with their pants down over the M8 LCDs - something they were less than candid about. I'm not sure longer support costs more - we pay for the support anyway. It's not a case of extended warranties, but supply chain management. When a company invests a lot of time and money in a product, you don't just assume that your component suppliers will continue to supply at a price you like, or that they will maintain stock on the shelf. You get binding commitments on pricing, support and inventory, and you monitor performance. If the supplier then either goes out of business or decides to discontinue your parts because it's no longer economic to make them, your agreement should enable you to take over designs, tooling, and all intellectual property (including base code for software) to enable you to get someone else to make the parts you need. While this may seem to be far-fetched, it's what I negotiate for a living (among other things). So, if you (still) say your product is "for life", you have the contractual rights and parts in place to live up to that promise. As Jaap acknowledges, we don't actually need faster, bigger, flashier as the 18 MP CCD sensor was actually capable of doing what most of us need. It is hardly inconsistent with the Leica model to continue to manufacture a perfectly good camera with minor improvements (they did that for almost 50 years, between the M3 and M7). That is consistent with a quality, premium priced product. It is also in line with the global move away from consumerism and throwaway product design. Conversely, if your position is that these are nothing more than electronics, and you ditch them after 3 years, or 10 (don't know about your cameras, but after 10 years, my Leicas will still look almost like new), then Sony's approach is more honest and reasonable. Very good electronics, packaged and priced accordingly. Sony will probably have something totally revolutionary in 10 years, but my A7R will still be going - any other Sony product has lasted as long. The M8 isn't 10 years old yet ... Cheers John Thanks John. What you describe is a standard part of terms and conditions in many contracts I have been involved with. And that's the way it should be for responsible management of any organization. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2793 Posted November 25, 2013 What percentage of Sonys from 2006 are still in operation and what percentage of M8s? Digital cameras of all types are quite reliable and long lasting. I have never had one break other than when I physically damaged the USB connector. I bet a very high percentage of 4x5 Sinar cameras are still operational, but are they the choice of many photographers today? One could also ask how many pros would buy an M8 today over an A7r? In any case, true or not what does that add to anyone's choice of what camera to use? Do you believe that an M bought tomorrow would be more reliable than an A7 bought tomorrow? And why would the Sony not be repairable 7 years from now but the Leica would be? Of course if at that point you can buy a newer better Sony for $500 you might not bother repairing it. I'd suspect the repair price for major problems on the M will be higher than buying a new Sony FF body at that time. A 4 year Sony service plan with accidental damage coverage for the A7r only costs $250. I looked up repair prices and this service will repair a 7 year old Canon 5D shutter for $159 and the main board for $256. Other repairs are less. So what's not to like? Canon 5D repair The price of the A7r makes it pretty easy for a pro to fit it into any kind of replacement and upgrade cycle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2794 Posted November 25, 2013 ………………. Conversely, if your position is that these are nothing more than electronics, and you ditch them after 3 years, or 10 (don't know about your cameras, but after 10 years, my Leicas will still look almost like new), then Sony's approach is more honest and reasonable. ………... Cheers John But….The realistic position for many of us, or at least enough of us to establish a market price, is that we don't "ditch" our Leicas after three years (or whatever), we sell them at a price that is usually high enough both to protect us against the type of erosion of value you're describing, and to demonstrate in straightforward terms that not everyone wants a brand new camera (perhaps they can't afford the initial outlay) but still value a three-year-old model enough to pay good cash for it. In any event, the point of this is to try to separate the financial consideration, which I think is a little more complicated than simply "What's the price?" from the comparison of the cameras themselves. But I suppose there are strong feelings both for and against Leica the company, and it's inevitable that these things become part of the evaluation process, and like most other factors, have a great deal to do with personal history and experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2795 Posted November 25, 2013 I had recently a 7 year old Nikon D200 repaired. They replaced an electronic daughter board that controls the shutter. Works fine again now! I like the colors its CCD sensor produces. Oh and BTW I have no plans to get rid of my M9. I plan on using it for many years to come and have it repaired if that should become necessary. It took me long enough to turn it into a useable camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2796 Posted November 25, 2013 Digital cameras of all types are quite reliable and long lasting. I have never had one break other than when I physically damaged the USB connector. I bet a very high percentage of 4x5 Sinar cameras are still operational, but are they the choice of many photographers today? One could also ask how many pros would buy an M8 today over an A7r? In any case, true or now what does that add to anyone's choice of what camera to use? Do you believe that an M bought tomorrow would be more reliable than an A7 bought tomorrow? And why would the Sony not be repairable 7 years from now but the Leica would be? Of course if at that point you can buy a newer better Sony for $500 you might not bother repairing it. I'd suspect the repair price for major problems on the M will be higher than buying a new Sony FF body at that time. A 4 year Sony service plan with accidental damage coverage for the A7r only costs $250. I looked up repair prices and this service will repair a 7 year old Canon 5D shutter for $159 and the main board for $256. Other repairs are less. So what's not to like? Deprecated Browser Error The price of the A7r makes it pretty easy for a pro to fit it into any kind of replacement and upgrade cycle. I am not talking about repairability, I doubt Sony does worse than Leica, but about the percentage of cameras in actual use. I don’t know the answer either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2797 Posted November 25, 2013 The only digital camera, in fact the only camera of any kind, that I have ever have fail on me and die completely was a Nikon D700. It cost many hundreds of pounds to have repaired despite being only just out of warranty. This is the sort of unlucky and unusual thing that can start to build prejudices if we're not careful! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2798 Posted November 25, 2013 Out of parts for M9 ? Where has this been reported ? There is one uncorroborated rumour in this forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2799 Posted November 25, 2013 ...we don't actually need faster, bigger, flashier as the 18 MP CCD sensor was actually capable of doing what most of us need. ...if your position is that these are nothing more than electronics, and you ditch them after 3 years, or 10 (don't know about your cameras, but after 10 years, my Leicas will still look almost like new), then Sony's approach is more honest and reasonable. Very good electronics, packaged and priced accordingly. Sony will probably have something totally revolutionary in 10 years, but my A7R will still be going - any other Sony product has lasted as long. I beat the living snot out of my adapted NEX-5, and it didn't last 2 and a half years. The shutter would only fire at 640th of a second and the menus and buttons were completely unresponsive. It was out of its warranted period and cost more to fix than to just replace. That was an all metal camera body that was never dropped, didn't get wet, just was well used. I have a Nikon D1H that still works, but at 2.7mp and a battery that lasts for about 2 36 exposure rolls of film....well, 10 years is a LONG time and while it seemed pretty hi tech at the time, it's way beyond obsolete. I've been shooting the adapted NEX 6 since April 2013 and am approaching 10000 exposures, or maybe 20000, I'm not sure. Those aren't 10 frame a second bursts either, or video, they are single shot, ARW files. While the body still looks new, I'm confident that it doesn't have another 9 and a half years left in it, especially since Sony just intro'ed this new full frame camera that is obviously somewhat more. The A7 will produce super high quality image files that probably will need tweaking to get them the way you want them to look. I have yet to run into a digital photo that I've taken that didn't need some help to get where it needed to be. I am super confident that the A7 is a remarkably capable camera in the hands of those who know how to use it. I know that because these were all taken with a 650 dollar NEX 6 at 800 ISO with a 90 Elmarit and a 28 Rokkor-M. They're not a white wall or a brick wall, but I hope you get the idea. For my money, It's the lenses, not the box they're attached to. However, this new box looks pretty good. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/214267-the-sony-a7-thread-merged/?do=findComment&comment=2473701'>More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 25, 2013 Share #2800 Posted November 25, 2013 Whether or not to sell or hold and repair my $12,000 digital Leica is my choice, not Leica's. The ease with which they abandon us is actually incompetent, rather than just shocking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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