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The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

dmclalla

By dmclalla
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AlanG

AlanG

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I am not talking about repairability, I doubt Sony does worse than Leica, but about the percentage of cameras in actual use. I don’t know the answer either.

 

Why would that matter to anyone other than as some kind of diversion? Do you think a high percentage of Sony p&s cameras should be compared to M8s? I bet lots of 10 year old Canon 1Ds's are also still working. So what? Are you planning to buy one of those?

 

At this point Leica is being squeezed into a smaller and smaller niche due to the development and lower pricing of recent cameras and lenses. And it seems the argument for supporting them are being squeezed into a smaller niche also. If I weren't a working pro a Nex or M4/3rds would be my choice.

 

Consider that Leica dropped an entire camera system leaving people to use their R lenses on other brands of digital cameras until the M finally came out. Now it looks like the much less expensive A7 or A7r is a better solution for R lens owners. Which company is doing the superior job here?

 

BTW an A7 body costs just a bit more than the M grip and the M's EVF that was using outdated technology, compared to Sony, even before it was released. And the M multifunction grip does not offer vertical use with duplication of controls. It and the EVF puts the M body more or less on the same footing of the A7 without its additional grip.

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AlanG

AlanG

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But, the A7 isn't a RANGEFINDER!

 

Oh, hang on, nor was the R camera :rolleyes:

 

I think one other thing that is coming into play is the limitation of the rangefinder as overall system resolution improves. Many people are using these smaller cameras in ways that are not ideal for rangefinders. If you look at Leica's technical paper on the 135mm lens it says the RF is not accurate enough for it and the lens should be stopped down 2 or more stops for DOF to cover the focus error, or live view should be used.

 

So even Leica has acknowledged that their rangefinder camera needs alternative focusing methods to get the most out of its system. Now the A7 is not a rangefinder but is AF and has other focusing features going for it. So which will work best for each individual under their intended uses is what every person has to decide.

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IkarusJohn

IkarusJohn

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Sorry John, I'm really struggling to fully appreciate your point. Whatever the reason, if they have undertaken to support your camera for at least another ten years, how are you being abandoned?

 

Or did you buy the camera in the belief that they, or any company on the planet, is capable of giving an undertaking that is good for much longer than that?

 

I want to sympathise because you are such a balanced and reasonable person, but you're confusing me a bit here!

 

In all honesty, for such a purchase price, I would expect Leica to be able to repair my M cameras for longer than 10 years (at my cost) - that's my choice, not theirs. All my other cameras have lasted longer than 10 years, and very few of them have needed repairing. My M9 is my most repaired camera ever.

 

I am not being abandoned yet - I'm looking at Leica's track record. They're profitable, yet they continue to try to ignore problems. Immediately prior to the M9 release, they dumped the R camera owners. In the three years I have been a Leica owner (and spent WAY more than is sensible on Leica equipment):

 

  • they have failed to secure a supply of LCDs for the M8, and only came clean about it as a result of pressure form this forum
  • they've had cracks and delimination on M9 sensors
  • they have failed to rectify firmware problems with the M9
  • released the M(240) as a beta - I'm relying on hearsay for this, as I don't have one, but failing lugs, white balance and other issues do stand out
  • tried to cancel a confirmed order from me (with deposit paid) on my Monochrom - they only went ahead when I pointed out that even under German law, what they were doing was unlawful

 

I suppose I can wait for the rumour about the shortage of Truesense CCD sensors to become a reality (Leica will only confirm this, I expect, when forced to), but then the wise heads here will say - be realistic, they're electronics, and Leica can't be responsible for what they don't control, that's life (see the discussion about the failure of the M8 for a relatively recent example of such wisdom). Much as I love my cameras and lenses, I've lost a bit of faith in Leica. I don't believe for a second that they will continue to fully support the electronics in my cameras for another 10 years. They can't even be bothered to fix the firmware and the 10 years promised hasn't started yet. Tell me, is the M-E still in production or not? Exactly when will Leica say - okay, 10 years from now?

 

I want them to do better. Turning the M camera into an electronic disposable is something I view as a betrayal. Hasn't happened yet? Think again. The M9 is only 3 years old. They haven't filled their orders for the M(240) and the EVF is a long way short of state of the art. That shouldn't happen with Leica's flagship camera.

 

Cheers

John

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IkarusJohn

IkarusJohn

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I like the rangefinder, but it is limited. We all need to be a bit honest about this.

 

The rangefinder is perfect for everything from 28 to 90, provided your subject is centre frame. Wider than 28, you need an additional viewfinder, longer than 90 and focusing becomes a problem. That's not really very good, is it?

 

Before Jaap tells me about focusing and reframing (then moving your head back a bit), I gave up guess focusing when I got my first Nikon with that fabulous focusing screen - when was that now? 1977? I posted elsewhere here a comparison of a rose taken with the M9 (focused and reframed) and with my D800E - some may not like the colours from the D800E, but it was perfectly focused, where the M9 clearly was not. Poor technique on my part? Hmm, well, it is only guesswork, isn't it?

 

It would be good if Leica joined the 21st century (well, actually the last quarter of the 20th would be good).

 

Cheers

John

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dwbell

dwbell

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Why would that matter to anyone other than as some kind of diversion?

 

Who sung that song that goes;

 

"You spin me right right round right round baby right round baby right round"

 

Conspicuously abscent for ages then just as it's proving itself along comes the obfuscation. Such a simple, yet highly effective strategy. I won't miss it, or it's kind.

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Jaybob

Jaybob

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. ...If I weren't a working pro a Nex or M4/3rds would be my choice.

 

BTW an A7 body costs just a bit more than the M grip and the M's EVF that was using outdated technology, compared to Sony, even before it was released....It and the EVF puts the M body more or less on the same footing of the A7 without its additional grip.

 

EXACTLY

 

...although, I am a working pro (though not as interested in hi resolution jewelry as Alan, just weddings) the NEX 6 with D3 for super wide and the 300 are my choice. A7 is on the list now.

 

M-E / M9 would be, if it wasn't 9 times the NEX 6's price (with tax...)

M is AT LEAST 10 times the price, and is still relatively unavailable almost six months after launch.

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Jaybob

Jaybob

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Who sung that song that goes;

 

"You spin me right right round right round baby right round baby right round"

 

Conspicuously abscent for ages then just as it's proving itself along comes the obfuscation. Such a simple, yet highly effective strategy. I won't miss it, or it's kind.

 

 

Dead or Alive

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jedi996sps

jedi996sps

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Have been following the thread with some interest and am wondering if any of you guys has got or tried the sony 55 f1.8 lens for the camera yet. I say this as I am not really interested in it for my leica lenses as I will use the M for them, but I have had so many problems with my 50 lux asph (and with getting older and eyesight not being what it used to be) that I am interested in the A7 with this lens as an AF alternative to the M and lux 50 asph. Thanks

 

You say that, but the 50lux works a treat on my A7r and with my rubbish eyesight, the EVF with it's zoom in focusing feature is an absolute delight to use and the results, well, they just bring a big smile to my face :).

 

The last time i used an EVF was on my Digilux 2, which incidentally, is still going strong, but the EVF just made me shudder.

 

As the 28 cron is not so good on the A7r, i will probably get the Sony FE35

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rosuna

rosuna

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BTW an A7 body costs just a bit more than the M grip and the M's EVF that was using outdated technology, compared to Sony, even before it was released.

 

That is the real drama with Leica: those crazy prices! The M is four times more expensive than the A7! Not even Canon has been able to sustain that difference in prices among similar products.

 

The A7 and A7r's impact on owners of Leica M lenses show a way to follow: a more affordable M camera (without rangefinder) specially suited for M lenses. Even at 3,200 euros it would be very attractive and competitive with Sony. The current M should adjust the price a bit.

 

If in addition to this Leica decides to offer a new APS-C or H system with Pana, that is a different bet, more risky.

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jaapv

jaapv

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I like the rangefinder, but it is limited. We all need to be a bit honest about this.

 

The rangefinder is perfect for everything from 28 to 90, provided your subject is centre frame. Wider than 28, you need an additional viewfinder, longer than 90 and focusing becomes a problem. That's not really very good, is it?

 

Before Jaap tells me about focusing and reframing (then moving your head back a bit), I gave up guess focusing when I got my first Nikon with that fabulous focusing screen - when was that now? 1977? I posted elsewhere here a comparison of a rose taken with the M9 (focused and reframed) and with my D800E - some may not like the colours from the D800E, but it was perfectly focused, where the M9 clearly was not. Poor technique on my part? Hmm, well, it is only guesswork, isn't it?

 

It would be good if Leica joined the 21st century (well, actually the last quarter of the 20th would be good).

 

Cheers

John

It wouldn’t be good - they would build a me-too camera and would be unable to compete on price - finito….

Actually, I can never remember whether to bend forward or backwards. :(.

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