The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[k-hawinkler]

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Does that include turning off compression too since that is "in camera processing"?

 

 

Answering for myself, no as long as the compression is lossless.

 

Lossless compression has really nothing to do with the sensor image data manipulations.

Lossless compression simply converts one representation of the data into another one that requires less storage.

However, as the algorithm is bijective the latter representation can be converted back into the former original representation without loss of information.

So a bit for bit comparison of the original uncompressed data with the data that was compressed and then uncompressed results in no differences.

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[Thomas Chen]

I'm not sure what you're referencing.

 

Based on the A7 specification, at least three kinds of compression algrithm are there:

1. Video file compression: MPEG-4, AVC/H.264

2.Audio file compression: MPEG-4, AAC-LC

3.Still image file compression: RAW to JPEG conversion through DCT transfomation

 

I guess he is refering the "color bit-depth compression" something like the 14-bit to 8-bit loss compression in M8, M9 or the lossless compression in M240. It's not shown in the A7 specification.

[bernd_muc]

I tried both cameras today at the Sony store in CWB Hong Kong for about 5 minutes each.

Good to know that they have them on display there Now I only need an adapter and I could test the 21 SEM ... Anyone?

[iforum]

How does this apply to the Canon or Nikon adapters?

Same process all sony has to do is get people interested in the camera lens buying follows quite naturally ........a lens without a adapter just feels and looks better

[mmradman]

Tim Ashley's assessment of the 50 LUX ASPH will answer your last question. Even on the M240, colour shift/vignetting is evident until f5.6. And it is not sharp across the frame until f8.0.

 

And your personal experience with Lux 50 ASPH is?

 

Quoting Tim Ashley by picking critical bits only doesn't really do justice to his review & conclusions which are actually complimentary. Tim has reputation at analysing cameras & lenses to the n-th degree so he would pick up tiniest characteristic and duly report it.

 

If I am to take discussion so far on Fred Miranda, mostly by people who don't own it, far granted I could conclude that lens is hyped up bottom of the milk bottle and worthless. Maybe I better chuck mine into the bin, actually better get rid of my M system altogether Maybe not

[jonoslack]

That would normally make sense but Sony is trying to make a big dent in the market with these cameras. They see compatibility with third party lenses as part of the way to get there and they could not do that with the SLT cameras. That is why they were showing a Canon lens mounted to an A7r at the show and also spoke about Metabones trying to make a Nikon AF compatible adapter. Sony knew lens compatibility would be a good aspect of making a mirroless FF body and I bet they listened to the feedback from lots of people who were adapting various lenses to the Nex cameras.

 

Additionally, since Sony promotes that the A7r has angled microlens.

 

OTOH Leica developed LR profiles for Hasselblad H lenses not so that Hassleblad could sell more lenses but so that Leica would sell more S bodies. It's a market penetration strategy allowing the existing Hasselblad user to enter the S system without a complete system changeover.

 

Good points both of you . . . But Canon and Nikon is not the same as Leica M, and Lightroom profiles are not the same as firmware profiles, added to which, Just as Canon and Nikon users are obvious targets for Sony, Hasselblad was an obvious target for Leica - in each case the market leader for that type of camera.

 

For us it seems like being able to use M lenses is a big deal - I just don't see why Sony should see it that way - and the fact that M lenses aren't even mentioned in the FAQ rather seems to bear that out.

 

Still - I've been wrong before - and here's hoping - if they do it, then Leica might see it as a good idea to make a customisable lens table for the M!

[biglou]

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Maybe some time ahead they will understand that in camera profiles for lenses is not the solution but that correction should be done when treating the raw files, on the computer.

[CheshireCat]

I downloaded the SONY "Image Data Converter Ver. 4.0" from SAR to browse the RAW out of A7R and incidentally find that the software can convert Leica JPEG files in sRGB color space into not ony Adobe RGB but also Wide color gamut color space (in either JPEG or TIFF format).

 

May be it is a way to discover another face of Leica files in the context of "Trilumions display".

 

Unfortunately, converting sRGB to wider gamuts will only result in the same exact image, as no software can restore color information that has been lost.

Another good reason to shoot raw

[dwbell]

Maybe some time ahead they will understand that in camera profiles for lenses is not the solution but that correction should be done when treating the raw files, on the computer.

 

But that means exposing the 'bad' image to the world. In camera we never see the incorrect end mess. No one would be that brave, especially not someone famous for quality lenses.

[CheshireCat]

I guess he is refering the "color bit-depth compression" something like the 14-bit to 8-bit loss compression in M8, M9 or the lossless compression in M240. It's not shown in the A7 specification.

 

It is not shown in the specs because it is obviously lossless compression.

Lossy RAW compression as in M8/M9 is nonsense.

[jaques]

 

For us it seems like being able to use M lenses is a big deal - I just don't see why Sony should see it that way - and the fact that M lenses aren't even mentioned in the FAQ rather seems to bear that out.

 

...

 

speaking to my dealer last friday- he mentioned that if you purchase the A7 kit with lens- you get a free lens adapter of your choice: including the option of a new Sony M mount adapter. So that rather suggest to me the contrary view. They seem to be actively encouraging the use of M lenses. And it makes sense too: if the lenses can be used, and the results are good- Sony has the chance of winning over many new customers that they otherwise might not get: those with M lenses. They also have their product associated with a high value brand name like Leica. If things really work out - images that are largely the result of quality Leica glass- will also be firmly associated with the Sony camera that took them. Heaven forbid testing down the track shows that the Sony produces IQ exceeding the $8000 Leica M's- well that would be a coup for Sony indeed- and a big challenge to Leica. Already- on paper- from a technical standpoint the Sony shames the M240 quite severely in several departments. The M's video functions look down right cobbled together and half arsed by comparison.

 

I distinctly remember, just a year back or so, many on this forum basically saying that a camera like this Sony would never be made at all. They said that no Japanese manufacturer would invest in a new line of FF lenses for their APS-C mount, that they would never make a camera that encouraged the use of other manufacturers lenses, that they wouldn't support the production of lens profiles for such lenses, that they wouldn't make a camera that competed with their pro level SLR's, etc. Yet here it is. Sure you have to make your own profiles.... but at least you can!

 

I personally think we will see a FF rangefinder competitor to Leica before too long. I think there are many reasons why a third party might want to take the competition right into Leica's domain. As we can see: this Sony clearly has a lot of Leica users both interested and concerned. A FF rf camera could totally blow them out of the water- technically speaking.

[Thomas Chen]

Unfortunately, converting sRGB to wider gamuts will only result in the same exact image, as no software can restore color information that has been lost.

Another good reason to shoot raw

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, shooting RAW is the first priority. However, SONY's "Image data converter" only deala with SONY camera's RAW file, the ARW. It even doesn't accept DNG files.

 

I've converted a Leica file in sRGB into Adobe and Wide Color Gamut ones through "Image data converter". They look different as shown in:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqxudxsepfd35wj/XDK_LnMibo

 

When the A7R arrives i will put them into the camera and find a SONY 4K2K Triluminos TV to see what's going on.

 

Perhaps Janpanese software company owns some kinds of proprietary algorithm just as claimed by Silkypix: "Silkypix has the feature of developing JPEG/TIFF image like the RAW data, which is called "SILKYPIX RAW Bridge".....Silkypix does something like an "inverse transformation" from a JPEG/TIFF image to a virtual RAW image and treats them as RAW data internally. Therefore, Silkpix does the color processing which is more correct than photo retouching software can be done...."

 

Who knows? Let's see the final result.

[AlanG]

Good points both of you . . . But Canon and Nikon is not the same as Leica M, and Lightroom profiles are not the same as firmware profiles, added to which, Just as Canon and Nikon users are obvious targets for Sony, Hasselblad was an obvious target for Leica - in each case the market leader for that type of camera.

 

For us it seems like being able to use M lenses is a big deal - I just don't see why Sony should see it that way - and the fact that M lenses aren't even mentioned in the FAQ rather seems to bear that out.

 

 

I didn't say that Sony will make firmware correction of Leica lenses. But they already have an app for lens correction that which works inside camera and custom apps could be written and installed via the Play Memory Apps feature. Even the Nex which has firmware correction for Sony lenses applies those corrections just to the jpegs. Since I shoot raw, I can't see how having any jpeg only lens correction matters to me and would apply it via a raw converter anyway.

[k-hawinkler]

speaking to my dealer last friday- he mentioned that if you purchase the A7 kit with lens- you get a free lens adapter of your choice: including the option of a new Sony M mount adapter. So that rather suggest to me the contrary view. They seem to be actively encouraging the use of M lenses. And it makes sense too: if the lenses can be used, and the results are good- Sony has the chance of winning over many new customers that they otherwise might not get: those with M lenses. They also have their product associated with a high value brand name like Leica. If things really work out - images that are largely the result of quality Leica glass- will also be firmly associated with the Sony camera that took them. Heaven forbid testing down the track shows that the Sony produces IQ exceeding the $8000 Leica M's- well that would be a coup for Sony indeed- and a big challenge to Leica. Already- on paper- from a technical standpoint the Sony shames the M240 quite severely in several departments. The M's video functions look down right cobbled together and half arsed by comparison.

 

I distinctly remember, just a year back or so, many on this forum basically saying that a camera like this Sony would never be made at all. They said that no Japanese manufacturer would invest in a new line of FF lenses for their APS-C mount, that they would never make a camera that encouraged the use of other manufacturers lenses, that they wouldn't support the production of lens profiles for such lenses, that they wouldn't make a camera that competed with their pro level SLR's, etc. Yet here it is. Sure you have to make your own profiles.... but at least you can!

 

I personally think we will see a FF rangefinder competitor to Leica before too long. I think there are many reasons why a third party might want to take the competition right into Leica's domain. As we can see: this Sony clearly has a lot of Leica users both interested and concerned. A FF rf camera could totally blow them out of the water- technically speaking.

 

 

Thanks for your perspective. Interesting.

I hope both Leica and Sony have a winning strategy as I already use their camera and lenses.

 

Is the new Sony M mount adapter already available?

If so, where could I order one?

Thanks.

[colonel]

The comments here are all very interesting.

 

I don't think diving into Leica or Sony being better is alot of use.

 

No one apart from Leica is going to make a range finder system for sure.

 

The value in Leica is the Jewellery like construction, RF and workflow. This is combined with excellent optics. It's never been about specs. Even in the film days Canon and Nikon were full of extra functionality.

 

The A7® looks like a fantastic system and anyone buying one should primarily want to use it standalone, rather then as an adjunct to use M mount lenses. Ie many here have D800E and M9/240 for example, perhaps the A7r can also be a good set with the M240.

 

I am not holding my breath on wide angle M lenses. I am sure there will be fringing issues. There are on the M9 and M240 but they are auto corrected.

 

It's a bit frustrating all the photo journos trying to be first to get a report in and so doing useless and misleading incomplete testing, all without raw files I believe.

 

As always, Reid is holding fire until he is finished the complete review.

 

 

 

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[algrove]

I'm not sure what you're referencing.

 

I am referencing your post #1666. Compression is part of "in-camera processing" Do you shoot uncompressed?

 

I saw a video short on Sony Rumors where the guy was going into using the Sony software to turn off all camera auto settings imbedded into the file upon capture. This made me wonder if the Sony file compression does more than just lossless compression, but might also add other unwanted effects in the image. It is really about reducing the effects of high ISO files at 12500.

 

High ISO Sony Alpha A7 / A7 RAWs Look Awful - But are they? | Leica BOSS

[algrove]

I see the NEX7 is reduced to $948 at Adorama today.

[marcg]

I see the NEX7 is reduced to $948 at Adorama today.

 

Not surprising - and I am sure there will be even better discounts. Not even have they discontinued but they have discontinued the brand.

It's going to be great value

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[colonel]

Not surprising - and I am sure there will be even better discounts. Not even have they discontinued but they have discontinued the brand.

It's going to be great value

 

its not certain if the "Nex" name is depreciated, but it was always officially called the "Alpha Nex"

 

If the next Nex-7 and Nex-6 are merged into a A6 product it will devalue the previous generations as all new cameras do, but no more

[jonoslack]

Hi Jaques

speaking to my dealer last friday- he mentioned that if you purchase the A7 kit with lens- you get a free lens adapter of your choice: including the option of a new Sony M mount adapter. So that rather suggest to me the contrary view.

 

Making an adapter is a no-brainer - you make them, you sell them, you make a profit . . . . spending many thousands of dollars on firmware development so that someone else can sell more lenses - it's hard to persuade finance departments that this is a good idea.

 

I didn't say that Sony will make firmware correction of Leica lenses. But they already have an app for lens correction that which works inside camera and custom apps could be written and installed via the Play Memory Apps feature. Even the Nex which has firmware correction for Sony lenses applies those corrections just to the jpegs. Since I shoot raw, I can't see how having any jpeg only lens correction matters to me and would apply it via a raw converter anyway.

 

Maybe Alan

But there are plenty of issues for instance

a) the camera knowing which lens has been used (focal length is not enough)

the camera knowing which aperture has been used

 

. . . . and how many photographs really want to use in camera apps for this kind of stuff - these cameras are complex enough as it is, and aren't M lenses all about simplicity?

 

Applying lens corrections after the event to the RAW files is fine . . .Isn't corner fix wonderful (no idea why Sandy doesn't charge for it). You need to know the aperture each image is shot at (of course, LR helps here . . . sometimes).

 

I'm not saying that it's not going to be possible to get good results with many lenses which do not have smeary corners - but it certainly won't be all lenses, and it'll require some notable knowledge and effort.

 

. . . . . . what I'm getting at is that - it's not just going to work straight out of the camera - you know that and I know that - the results may be fabulous . . .

 

Whatever - I'm an absolute advocate of mirror less cameras (I use an E-M1 - I like IBIS, but that's my poison). These Sonys are unquestionably going to be great cameras and it's an obvious leap forward in technology. But in my experience I always end up using the lenses designed for the camera . . . .

 

Lots of people seem to think WOW! no need for an M - I can just use my nice M lenses on an A7r - but personally, although I'm sure it'll be possible for lots of lenses, I just don't think it's going to be that simple for non-telecentric wider angle lenses. . . . . and of course, I may be wrong.