jedi996sps Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1101 Posted October 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) There have been lots of wringing of hands and shaking of heads in the last several days along the lines of Leica should have, could have but did not. Yes, I have ordered the new Sony A7R as I simply got fed up waiting for the M240 and am now not convinced that is what i want, and I look forward to using the Sony with my Leica lenses and the ‘appropriate’ adapter, which is where my headache started and reminded me of just ‘one’ of the things that Leica did and have done right, the M mount. With the Sony, as well as the paracetamol for the head ache, we have A mount, E mount and FE mount and a whole forest of adapters that depending on the type and lense, do varying degree’s of something. Just a thought, Sony – could have, should have but didn’t, follow the lead of sigma and offer the camera with different integral mount options, especially as it is not lenses which are their core specialty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 19, 2013 Posted October 19, 2013 Hi jedi996sps, Take a look here The Sony A7 thread [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
MarkP Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1102 Posted October 19, 2013 Seems to me that the importance, or lack of importance, of photographic technology is simply need based, not the philosophical debate it seems to always trigger. "It's the person behind the camera, not the camera." type counter-points are fundamentally true of any camera from a smart phone to a 80 meg MFD camera. So, I've never understood such "creative" comments in relation to the "science" of photography ... which has continuously evolved from day one, and shows no sign of abating. This Sony a7/a7R is yet another milestone in the technical trek. How important it may be to different individuals depends on needs/desires and their use of tools to make photos. I'm a long time full frame Sony DSLR/SLT user for my professional work. I understand the pros and cons of Sony's approach ... and basically ignore that which serves no purpose in my work. I also use a S2 system and a Leica M Monochrome ... was a very long time M and R user prior to my current gear. I've ordered an a7R, because it uses technology to solve a few needs/desires I have. This solution is ... A small camera that's easy to take with, and easier to carry for extended periods of time, BUT packs industry leading FF 36 meg resolution not found in any camera of this size. In this instance, "The person behind the camera" is getting tired of carrying a DSLR brick for 7 or 8+ hours. A camera that I can mount some state of the art M optics I already have for the times I want to do color work with those lenses. I never did much color work with a rangefinder camera for 30+ years anyway, so the MM was another piece of technological assistance that better fit my creative bent. "The person behind the camera" artistically prefers a dedicated B&W rangefinder camera. A camera that is $4,700 less investment than a M240. So, "The person behind the camera" has the money to travel with the camera. A camera that can back-up my other Sony A mount cameras if necessary while on the job. So, I'll have one camera that can back-up two completely different systems. "The person behind the camera" prefers simplicity to complexity so he can concentrate on taking the images rather than preparing to take the images. And so on ... - Marc A well thought and laid out argument Marc. I don't have a DSLR but an M240 and Monochrom, too many M-lenses, and two R-lenses (28-90 Vario-Elmarit & 28 PC). I still have my M9 which I have kept for my son to use with a nice set of ZM lenses (25, 50, 85) as he is doing photography for art in his final year at school - life's tough, I got my fathers old Canonet and a crappy Minolta SLR. I love the results I get with both the M240 and Monochrom, and I really enjoy using both of these cameras. I have ordered an A7R and planned to take delivery if the M-wides work on it and the IQ is to my satisfaction superior to the Leicas. Otherwise I don't see the point if the system compatibility is limited - I mainly use 21-50mm lenses. I was planning on trading in my old M9 for the Sony (obviously which will leave me with some extra money for a very short holiday) as I can see where it would enhance my system to some extent (also because I do not have a DSLR). Furthermore I only need so many digital camera bodies and didn't mind having a bit more invested in as Sony rather than a still fairly valuable M9. However, my son has just put the kybosh on my plans . He has forbidden me to unload the M9 as he also loves the results he gets with it and the whole user experience of the rangefinder which makes him slow down and think about the shot, and finally his (ha!) Leica is very cool and has great street-cred - What could I say? So I'll keep my order in and take my time about my decision. ps - the person behind the camera went out photographing today just with a Monochrom and 50 Summmilux and had a very nice and relaxing time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1103 Posted October 19, 2013 I had trouble with one wife and had to get rid if her....... Hats off to you, Jono, if you can manage two.... What?! Didn't you get a second wife with your M240? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1104 Posted October 19, 2013 And I wonder if the A8 will come out before the M242, and how it will compare ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1105 Posted October 19, 2013 It would still be incomparable, because of the (lack of a) rangefinder... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1106 Posted October 19, 2013 Anyone with a basic understanding of photography, steady hands and any kind of even remotely artistic idea warrants high/low/middle or any equipment which they are technically capable of using. Beyond that largely subjective questions about the artistic merit of ones output have very little to do with warranting the equipment. I have loads of pictures that give me that wow factor when I load them up on the computer, I am no pro so have no need to sell them nor the ego to post them all over the internet so does this somehow make me unworthy? What a crock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1107 Posted October 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) A camera that is $4,700 less investment than a M240. - Marc Keep in mind if we compare apples to apples (24MP) then the a7 costs $5300 less than the M 240. If you are getting the 36MP model of course your comparison works, but it is really apples (MI-my home state) and oranges (FL-my current residence). I too continue to be at one with my SWC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1108 Posted October 19, 2013 Keep in mind if we compare apples to apples (24MP) then the a7 costs $5300 less than the M 240. If you are getting the 36MP model of course your comparison works, but it is really apples (MI-my home state) and oranges (FL-my current residence). I too continue to be at one with my SWC. But we can agree on significantly cheaper, I presume? If it was 10 or 50 dollars then I completely agree. But we're in the thousands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1109 Posted October 19, 2013 Just look at how their flagship M240 handles the evf, video, high iso and live view. Basically all their R&D went into this, their pride and glory . Not not all their R&D. The S represented a significant allocation of R&D. The A7/A7r are just the first ripple in a sea change where Cannon and Nikon systems evolve to mirrorless and SLRs face extinction, which does not bode well for return to Leica's S system development investment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1110 Posted October 19, 2013 The whole reason for Leica M. Is to slow down take the time to focus , expose , compose , and enjoy the art of photography . Take in the smooth uncluttered quality feel of the tool in your hand . Use the little gem of lenses , walk around without carrying a backpack full of gear, and taking pictures instead of messing around with menus. If the Sony sensor which is more then likely the same as the Nikon d800 is not going to give you much more quality of image then the M I have done the tests in my showroom and it could not even hold up against the M9 I would consider picking one up to play around with but replace an M .? Not a chance The sensor in the A7r is not the sensor in either the D800 or the D800E. Additionally, the camera entirely lacks an AA filter. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1111 Posted October 19, 2013 What about the shutter noise? I read that the Sony A7 is very loud. Then, is the shutter of the M as silent as that of the M9 in the discrete mode? How does it compare to other cameras, e.g. Olympus Pen or OMD? Thomas p.s. what about Bulb mode, the A7 has no wire release... Yes it does: Sony Alpha a7 Mirrorless Digital Camera ILCE7/B B&H Photo Video Sony RM-VPR1 Remote Control with Multi-terminal Cable RM-VPR1 Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1112 Posted October 19, 2013 But we can agree on significantly cheaper, I presume? If it was 10 or 50 dollars then I completely agree. But we're in the thousands. And no stopping this from getting less expensive over time. Basically the A7 is not much different from a $650 Nex 6 body with a larger sensor, bigger shutter, and some upgrades in construction. (No flash.) I am not sure how much the costs of those differences contribute to the $1000+ higher price or how much is driven by the opportunity to charge that amount due to lack of competition. Obviously Leica is working on a different model and they clearly state they don't want to be in the kind of (unprofitable?) competition that some other camera companies are in. But after reading all of these posts on a Leica forum, I think their strategy will only work to a point. I had an assignment yesterday to shoot amenities in a neighborhood for use on a builder's web site to show why you'd like to live in their project. I used my Nex 6 for that and its files are way overkill for use on a web site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1113 Posted October 19, 2013 Over at fredmiranda is a very interesting discussion about the issues those A7/R cameras are exhibiting. I think the best hope is they might work for R lenses. For M lenses not so much. Color cast is considered a minor fixable issue. The real concern has to do with excessive pixel smearing in corners. Well, that's what I got out of their discussion so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturephoto1 Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1114 Posted October 19, 2013 Over at fredmiranda is a very interesting discussion about the issues those A7/R cameras are exhibiting.I think the best hope is they might work for R lenses. For M lenses not so much. Color cast is considered a minor fixable issue. The real concern has to do with excessive pixel smearing in corners. Well, that's what I got out of their discussion so far. Karl, That is applying to M Wide angle lenses at least some of them. I believe everything 40mm or so and longer is OK. The question still applies to the M Wide angle lenses and how wide is OK. Also, I am not sure if any of the issues have been dealt with the camera's internal software (or whether it is even in final form yet). Don't forget that Leica's own cameras have issues with WA M lenses that are dealt with at least in part by internal software. I doubt there should be any issues with the R lenses. That is mostly why I have an A7r on order. But I am hoping my Minolta 40mm f2 Rokkor-M will be fine and am keeping my fingers crossed for at least some of the WA M lenses. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1115 Posted October 19, 2013 That pretty much sums up my understanding as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1116 Posted October 19, 2013 Sure. I'm not sure what percentage or M users are serious WA users. Nor which percentage are "optical RF or nothing". The remaining percentage who shoot 35 and up and just want a modern body, excellent sensor and M glass is also a mystery. But one I'd be calculating if I were Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Jones Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1117 Posted October 19, 2013 Just look at how their flagship M240 handles the evf, video, high iso and live view. Basically all their R&D went into this, their pride and glory. This is the best Leica can do with all the fancy things that became possible by switching to CMOS. What makes you think Leica could come up with a properly working Full Frame evf mirrorless camera that could even compete with the A7? Sure maybe in another year or maybe in the next M camera, but right now Leica just doesn't have to resources or the digital know how to make a camera like the A7. Their pride and joy still uses an old olympus vf-2 and they can't even make it zoom in any other place than the center. Their video is just an after thought and is hardly worth the effort compared to most other dslr's. And their highest iso is a push 6400 which bands too much to be useable after dark. Imagine the M240 without the rangefinder for 4000 euro. It would be a pretty bad camera in any other way than base iso image quality, and it would compete with the A7? Don't get me wrong, the M240 is a magnificent camera, but if you don't buy it for the rangefinder experience, you're getting a lousy deal. This was why my question was left so open. I would be very interested in the decision making process, did they just sit around a table and think 'forget it, we could never make it' or 'we will never leave the rangefinder off' etc. Like you I think they would have to look at it as an ambitious project and they may manage it down the road, it was part of my reason for pre ordering. I think Leica would have to applaud the technical accomplishment at the very least. At the same time they have been producing the only mirrorless full frame for quite a long time, the M9 was no mean feat when you consider the opposition has taken so long to get in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1118 Posted October 19, 2013 Related to that might be the following. Tim Ashley studied IQ of his Lux ASPH 50/1.4 on his OM-D E-M1. According to him image corners were mush! He is going to write that up on his website presumably. Interesting if true. Tim is usually correct though. I did a similar quick test with a Noct Nikkor 58/1.2 on my E-M1. At f/5.6 the image appeared sharp, including corners. But I need to do these kind of tests more carefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1119 Posted October 19, 2013 Well I have my order in for the A7R and don't plan to cancel it. At this stage I am very much interested in the technical understanding of how non native lenses behave on those cameras. No doubt, pretty soon we will know more facts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted October 19, 2013 Share #1120 Posted October 19, 2013 And then there's the final assessment of 'better' package when paired with Zeiss lenses, even with a slight loss in lens quality vs the Ms. We'll see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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