Monochrom production

[jaapv]

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Undoubtedly there are Monochrom users that wish for the versatility and better build of the M. But my guess is that the majority either have a slightly luddite disinterest in what they consider superfluous additions or use it side by side with an M or M9 (waiting for their M) It takes a certain off-beat mentality to buy a camera like that.

[Jeff S]

Could be, but it seems GAS beats logic almost every time around these parts.

 

Leica might be wise to omit some features (like video) in a new MM to address one of your points, but not sure about the economics or logistics of doing so. Heck, I wish the M didn't have video, and I'm no luddite.

 

Jeff

[Guest Essemmlee]

So far it sells for 5200-5500 EUROS on the SH market, which is quite a bit of depreciation, I would say...

 

Even at the bottom end of this price range I have been unable to sell my spare, hardly used monochrom. It's been advertised worldwide for over a month with no real interest (even in the buy and sell on this website)

 

Perhaps they are not as popular, or as desirable, as members here believe. Though it is, without any doubt, the best camera I have ever owned.

[250swb]

£4900 is the dealer price for a second hand MM in the UK, for which you get the remainder of any Passport period left, and a Dealer warranty for six months. And Leica Dealers in my experience are always extra helpful if a purchase goes wrong after the warranty period. So I wouldn't base assumptions about popularity on not selling yours at 'full price' in a private sale.

 

But back to the general point, I don't think Live View, or even video would spoil a new version of the MM. It is the bloat involved with the M240, the increase in size that will put people off, especially if they don't even want LV and video. I think sooner rather than later Leica will address this unfortunate aspect of their designs in making them bigger as everybody else is making camera's smaller. So it may be the M360 that starts to shrink (although by then Leica will have decided the bulk of a tilting LCD will be needed), and this will start to appeal to the Luddites again because it won't be so much in their mind that they bought a great big camera with a host of features that they don't want (which anyway can be done so much better by other camera's).

 

Steve

[Guest Essemmlee]

£4900 is the dealer price for a second hand MM in the UK, for which you get the remainder of any Passport period left, and a Dealer warranty for six months. And Leica Dealers in my experience are always extra helpful if a purchase goes wrong after the warranty period. So I wouldn't base assumptions about popularity on not selling yours at 'full price' in a private sale.

 

Well, that's told me.

[jaapv]

Even at the bottom end of this price range I have been unable to sell my spare, hardly used monochrom. It's been advertised worldwide for over a month with no real interest (even in the buy and sell on this website)

 

Perhaps they are not as popular, or as desirable, as members here believe. Though it is, without any doubt, the best camera I have ever owned.

Of course it is hard to sell an used one now; they are a niche within a niche. At that price would go for a new one. I am talking about a time when there will be no new ones available.

Just look at the DMR. Ten years old, No technical support, batteries an unknown quantity, etc. Yet they sell at amazing prices compared to the top-end Canikon DSLRs of the time.

[jaapv]

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£4900 is the dealer price for a second hand MM in the UK, for which you get the remainder of any Passport period left, and a Dealer warranty for six months. And Leica Dealers in my experience are always extra helpful if a purchase goes wrong after the warranty period. So I wouldn't base assumptions about popularity on not selling yours at 'full price' in a private sale.

 

But back to the general point, I don't think Live View, or even video would spoil a new version of the MM. It is the bloat involved with the M240, the increase in size that will put people off, especially if they don't even want LV and video. I think sooner rather than later Leica will address this unfortunate aspect of their designs in making them bigger as everybody else is making camera's smaller. So it may be the M360 that starts to shrink (although by then Leica will have decided the bulk of a tilting LCD will be needed), and this will start to appeal to the Luddites again because it won't be so much in their mind that they bought a great big camera with a host of features that they don't want (which anyway can be done so much better by other camera's).

 

Steve

I cannot say I noticed any size increase when going from the M9 to the M, in fact it fits the M9 full case I have exactly -except for the shifted tripod screw, which was easily solved. It is exactly the same as my M8 and M9. Maybe 1/2 a mm in thickness. The camera is considerably thinner than an M9 with a Thumbie, which should be your comparison.

I think the type of photographer that buys a Monochrom would have great problems with the added features, and/or with the different look of the images, which probably would be considerably more pronounced than it is on a colour camera.

[MarkP]

I think the type of photographer that buys a Monochrom would have great problems with:

 

the added features

No

 

 

and with the different look of the images, which probably would be considerable more pronounced than it is on a colour camera.

Yes

 

..well, at least for me....

[jaapv]

Would the added features be an upgrade reason for you if the image look were similar, just a bit more resolution?

[IWC Doppel]

I might be tempted before Christmas, as most dealers take 20% this could mean private sales get nearer the £4k at some point. I also think VAT has an impact as a number can offset that as a capital item in their business

[MarkP]

Would the added features be an upgrade reason for you if the image look were similar, just a bit more resolution?

 

As you know I mainly shoot B&W, or convert colour to B&W.

So assuming similar image quality/look (I would not want that changed) and slight increase in resolution AND leaving the upgrade cost aside:

 

1. Enhancement of user experience:

Significantly improved viewfinder

That fantastic shutter

Beautifully refined construction

 

2. Enhancement of camera's use and versatility:

Significantly improved viewfinder

EFV for longer lenses such as the 3.4/135

EVF for faster lenses with shallow DOF and/or focus shift (such as Noctilux 1.0 wide open)

Use of the only two R lenses that interest me and that I own: 2.8-4.5/28-90 Vario-Elmarit and 2.8/28 PC-Super-Angulon (although I have just been offered and very responsibly turned down an 2.8/100 APO-Macro-Elmarit )

 

But having said all that I'm very happy with my Monochrom just as it is and none of these would be essential, just nice to have

[jaapv]

So no real reason for an upgrade;) My point

[MarkP]

So no real reason for an upgrade;) My point

 

In a word....No

 

But it would be nice to have the Monochrom as refined as the M240

[Leopold Green]

I am probably what counts as a luddite (a lurking luddite at that)... I missed out the M8/9/9p and the whole digital world that went with them and just kept on with my M4 and M6HM ... it took the Monochrom to really convince me it might be worth trying digital and since I am a long way from well off it took some real hardship to save the money but it has been worth it and then some... for me it is perfect camera and yet it is still close enough to the M6 to have been a gentle progression.

 

If Leica made a new Monochrom in a few years with significantly increased resolution whilst maintaining the wonderful image quality and keeping the camera as traditional rangefinder I'd happily try and save up for one... if on the other hand there was only a modest increase in resolution but all the 240 features (LV, EVF, video, buttons all over the body) it would not be for me. I do understand that many like the ability to use their R lens but if you don't have any then - and even if you do once added the the concept of the small discrete rangefinder is rather left behind.

 

Doubt this adds to the conversation except to say the Monochrom is just fine as it is

[Jeff S]

... if on the other hand there was only a modest increase in resolution but all the 240 features (LV, EVF, video, buttons all over the body) it would not be for me...

 

You missed all the improvements to the traditional RF experience I mention here.

 

And buttons all over the body? A couple added, but offset by loss of frame preview lever and illumination window on front. Not really complicated at all if one ignores the extra capabilities, which really don't intrude.

 

Still maybe not for you, or for many other luddites, but I think you miss some basic advantages as a better, traditional, RF camera. The shutter quietness and smooth release reminds me a lot more of my film M days than my M8.2 (similar to an MM in regards to this aspect) ever did. The obnoxious re-cock motor whirr on other digital Ms is anything but luddite in nature. And the weather sealing, too, brings me back to film M days of not worrying about weather conditions. Different strokes.

 

Jeff

[Guest malland]

Jaap, as for me the main thing is that the M9-P and the M-Monochrom have finally brought digital cameras to a state that one doesn't need to look what the "camera of the month" if offering. My digital progression started in mid-2006 with the Ricoh GRD and went on to the D-Lux-3, the Ricoh GX100, GRD2, GRD3, Ricoh GXR, Leica M8, Leica M9 (disastrous first round in 209), Ricoh GXR M-Module, and the GRD4. Against this, I was using an M6 from 1989 to 2006. There is a lot to sticking with one camera for years. Frenetic changing of cameras does not encourage improvement of ones photography.

 

I thought LiveView was great: and when I had it first on the GRD it transformed my style by encouraging fluidity through one-handed shooting by establishing roughly the edges of the frame but then looking directly at the subject when pressing the shutter — which in my view is the best way to shoot street photography with this type of camera. But having had that experience has the fluidity has carried across to my shooting with the M9-P and the M-Monochrom: I now often do "no finder shots" with 21 and 28mm lenses by holding these cameras against my chest.

 

Now, I when I got the M9 and the Monochrom, I thought that it was awful that the LCD was of such low resolution; but in using these cameras I find all that all I used the LCD for is to see the histogram. And then I use the technique for night photography (on the M9: "Shoot at ISO 640 and push in LR5", on which some of the more unpleasant people here have been castigating me for providing links for the relevant thread), I don't look use the LCD at all — I just turn off the image review function.

 

So, the bottom line for me is that, while I recognize some of the improvements in the M240, they don't interest me much because they are trumped by the CMOS-type color rendition on which I am not yet convinced in comparison to the M9; and as for the Monochrom...I don't need to complete this sentence. All I need to write here is that it is refreshing to have two cameras that essentially work in the same manner — even small differences in user interface between two digital cameras can make it annoying to use them together — that I don't need to think about "upgrading" for the foreseeable future; in a effect back to the paradigm of not changing film cameras.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[Leopold Green]

Still maybe not for you, or for many other luddites, but I think you miss some basic advantages as a better, traditional, RF camera. The shutter quietness and smooth release reminds me a lot more of my film M days than my M8.2 (similar to an MM in regards to this aspect) ever did. The obnoxious re-cock motor whirr on other digital Ms is anything but luddite in nature. And the weather sealing, too, brings me back to film M days of not worrying about weather conditions. Different strokes.

 

Jeff

 

Yes you were right to remind me of the quiet shutter and semi weather sealing - I completely accept that these are very worthwhile enhancements and would improve my monochrom... the extra buttons/microphone take the M some distance from its analogue heritage - I know this is only my opinion and if their functions were functions I wanted I guess I would see it differently

 

But yes - a more analogue shutter sound would be great

[algrove]

I would find no real NEED to upgrade. That said, I would not mind having the quiet shutter of the M on my MM for street work. All the rest of the new features have little or no interest for me today on an MM, even though I do like my M immensely.

[jpattison]

If Leica made a new Monochrom in a few years with significantly increased resolution whilst maintaining the wonderful image quality and keeping the camera as traditional rangefinder I'd happily try and save up for one...

 

Although I agree with you on using the MM as a film camera (not using the display screen...) I cannot see why anyone would want increased resolution. This would only mean smaller pixels on a fixed 35mm full frame sensor. It is fine as it is.

How many here print bill-board size prints? How many print at all?

The other pointless desire is for better Hi ISO performance. 1000 ISO is plenty, we shoot Leica lenses, they can be used at f1.4, f2 for a bit of DoF if that's your bag.

 

John

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

But yes - a more analogue shutter sound would be great

 

And one of the best, and most surprising, benefits of the new M IMO is the improved RF experience. It's said to be the same mechanism as the M9 (and therefore MM), but Stefan Daniel hinted at some improvement (in his video interview with Thorsten). You have to try it to see.

 

Anything that helps me see and focus better is paramount. YMMV.

 

Jeff