Leica M + SF58

[paulsydaus]

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Hi all,

I have the SF58 but haven't yet tested it with the M240. I will be getting mine in about three weeks, but before then I wanted to ask about flash usage on the M. I plan to add this Q&A to that thread when I have some firm answers.

 

Q1. Does the M support HSS with the SF58? If so, how does this work?

 

Q2. Does the M support TTL flash with the SF58? If so, how does this work? Is the SCA3502 adapter still required?

 

Cheers and thanks so much everyone.

 

Paul

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[CaptZoom]

1). Dunno the answer

 

2). Yes. A preflash is fired to determine exposure. This happens quick enough that its not noticeable.

[Guest roey]

#1 When connected to the M the flash offers a special mode (something like "TTL + HSS"). When you set it to this mode you can set your M's shutter speed to something faster than 1/180th. I tried this briefly when I got my camera, but haven't yet found the time to really put this to a test. I just confirmed that it works at 1/500th.

 

In general HSS works by firing continuously while the shutter is open. This limits the power of the flash and drains its batteries more quickly, but it is a great option to have.

[paulsydaus]

Thanks guys,

 

Do either of these functions require the SCA adapter? If not, that's a great hidden improvement for the M240!?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

the sf58 has a permanent hotshoe. It doesn't need (and can't accept) a sca adaptor.

 

Gordon

[CaptZoom]

Thanks guys,

 

Do either of these functions require the SCA adapter? If not, that's a great hidden improvement for the M240!?

 

I know #2 works with the M9.

[viramati]

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I have both and the answer is yes to both questions

The M Supports TTL And TTL-HSS flash modes HSS stands for 'high speed sync' and that is what it does it syncs the flash at speeds above the normal 1/180sec up to the max speed of 1/4000sec though at a lower power output. It is perfect for daylight fill flash. and especially useful for situations like weddings etc

[wlaidlaw]

There are errors in the SF58D implementation for the M240 (or M10 or M or whatever you want to call it). I was in contact with Leica about this in March. The answer was "don't worry we know about this, it will all be corrected in the next FW update which is due soon."

 

Well Leica - where is it? The FW update to correct AWB, wide lens Italian flag and flash implementation is WAYYYY overdue.

 

Wilson

[Erik Gunst Lund]

2). Yes. A preflash is fired to determine exposure. This happens quick enough that its not noticeable.

 

Yes it's a Digital version of TTL, it reads the preflash of the shutter curtain to determine/guess how much flash is needed.

The sensor is too shiny to make a metering off.

Some people can detect this preflash and close their eyes too fast...

[CaptZoom]

Yes it's a Digital version of TTL, it reads the preflash of the shutter curtain to determine/guess how much flash is needed.

The sensor is too shiny to make a metering off.

Some people can detect this preflash and close their eyes too fast...

 

I don't doubt it.

[Hookeye]

Regarding TTL-HSS with SF-58 and the M240:

 

When the flash is set to TTL mode the TTL-HSS function is automatically invoked in two situations:

 

a ) The M240 shutter dial is set to "A" and the ambient light dictates a shutter speed. faster than 1/180s with the chosen aperture. If you stop down the lens so that shutter speed goes below 1/180s the flash seemlessly and automatically reverts to normal TTL mode.

 

If the flash is in TTL mode and you manually choose a shutter speed on the M240 shorter than 1/180s.

 

However, TTL-HSS is automatically invoked in both these situations. The SF-58 does not have this mode as an elective option in the menu.

 

Pre-flash: I haven't noticed it. Either it is unbelievably quick, or it simply is not there. It may be that the flashlight reaching the M240 sensor is fed back in real time to the SF-58 so that it is switched off after correct exposure.. I.e. I do not believe a pre-flash is read from the curtain as has been suggested. But I may be wrong here, of course;)

[CaptZoom]

From the SF58's manual (page 56):

 

TTL flash mode

With TTL flash mode, you can achieve very good flash shots easily. In this mode, the exposure is measured by a sensor in the camera. It measures the light entering the camera through the lens (TTL = “Through The Lens“).

The advantage of this flash mode is that all factors influencing the exposure (filters, aperture changes, and focal length changes with zoom lenses, exten- sions for close-ups, etc.) are automatically taken into account in controlling the flash output.

 

TTL flash mode with metering pre-flash

The TTL flash mode with metering pre-flash with the digital Leica M- models is a further development of the standard TTL flash mode of analog cameras. Immediately after the shutter button is pressed, and before the actual expo- sure, one or more almost invisible metering pre-flashes are executed by the flash unit. The reflected light of the metering pre-flash/es is evaluated by the camera. According to the evaluation, the subsequent flash exposure is adapted to the photographic situation by the camera.

Notes:

• Depending on the camera model, the metering pre-flashes precede the main flash by such a short interval that they cannot be practically distinguished from the main flash!

• The metering pre-flashes do not contribute to the exposure.

[Hookeye]

Yes, thanks Captain, I have also read that. But from my own observations the pre-flashes are not noticeable (to my slow mind) with the M240. Or something has changed on the way. That manual was written in 2009. Whatever… the take home message that the thing works and can contribute to good photos in difficult siituations.

 

Nevertheless, I am intrigued by this pre-flash issue. I wonder why? Now, even a relatively cheap lightmeter can distinguish a flash from ambient light. This implies it is entirely possible for the M240 (as opposed to previous Leicas) to make an advanced light measurement in real time from the sensor and precisely determine the contribution of the flash light to the scene. Then tell the flash unit: "That will be enough, thank you very much!"

[CaptZoom]

Yes, thanks Captain, I have also read that. But from my own observations the pre-flashes are not noticeable (to my slow mind) with the M240. Or something has changed on the way. That manual was written in 2009. Whatever… the take home message that the thing works and can contribute to good photos in difficult situations.

I wasn't questioning you. The quote from the flash manual was all I could find on how the SF58 works, so I added it to the discussion.

 

Nevertheless, I am intrigued by this pre-flash issue. I wonder why? Now, even a relatively cheap lightmeter can distinguish a flash from ambient light. This implies it is entirely possible for the M240 (as opposed to previous Leicas) to make an advanced light measurement in real time from the sensor and precisely determine the contribution of the flash light to the scene. Then tell the flash unit: "That will be enough, thank you very much!"

Not sure what you're trying to describe here. Could you say more?

[Erik Gunst Lund]

I don't doubt it.

 

I do a lot of Pro portraits, and also group shots with more than 200 people, it's not something I'm postulating...

 

It's a similar system as the Nikon CLS system, you can easily search for more info on that.

 

It's a real setback compared to the good old Flash on Film TTL Way of working regrading people.

For some situations for instance when shooting with more flashes in groups, many pre flash are fired, it has been measured and posted online many years ago when digital cameras where young, sure the later systems are better now but there is a long way to go yet IMHO

 

 

This was never a problem with Film TTL or if working with studio strobes.

Now I switch to manual flash without preflash.... to avoid such problems...

[Hookeye]

Not sure what you're trying to describe here. Could you say more?

 

Okay, I will try. We know that the M240 is capable of doing advanced light metering using the sensor as an alternative to the usual metering from the shutter curtain. We also know that hand-held exposure meters are capable of measuring the light from a flash, also in the presence of ambient light. Somehow they are able to distinguish the short pulse of intense light from the level background lighting. Let us assume this ability to detect flash light was incorporated in the M240 advanced light metering through a special algorithm that is invoked when a flash is connected, in TTL mode and ready to fire.

 

The following sequence of events could take place: First the flash and camera shake hands and agree on what protocol to use (i.e. ISO setting, exposure time, flash EV setting etc). The 'ready' sign appears in the viewfinder. You press the trigger. The shutter opens (no pre-flash), the flash fires, the camera detects the incoming pulse of light from the flash reaching the sensor and instructs the flash to switch off when just the right amount of flash light has come in. The camera continues to expose with ambient light until the image is complete. The shutter closes.

 

I.e. in theory it should be entirely possible to do TTL flash entirely without the use of pre-flash. Or maybe not?

[Chris101-MM]

In theory, yes. (There actually is military-grade, and probably scientific, photography units using this kind of added light technology) - Maybe consumer stuff as well? - That i don't know.

 

But can you really store that much power in the capacitor(s) of the flash-unit without it being a big hot burning boulder, and at what cost of exposure times?

(I have actually made a Canon 580EX II flash catch fire by not following Canons recommendations by using an external "juice-pack" that had a little more power than Canons own, and by shooting without restrictions. 3rd time the flash "overheated" it started smoldering and had to take a dip in the closest sink)

 

Second, you do have to have an active evaluative metering over the whole frame for this to be useful. Otherwise you will more often than not come across scenes where there are reflective object, light colors, or other ambient, or active sources of light in one location where the camera does not do the metering. Top right corner for example, that in turn will ruin the whole image. - TTL already does this, so why find a new way of redoing the same problem?

 

In that case, why not make camera and flash as smart as: Hey -Ambient light here is -1/3 EV, so i need to add +1/3 EV with my flash unit at exposure, and drop the TTL altogether?

 

I never tried "the M" with TTL, but as for my MM goes it sucks big time! The time between the pre-fash fire and exposure flash is horrendous! I can with out a doubt order a pizza with extra everything and pick it up, have a slice before the exposure flash fires.

 

I have, however, found that with this slooooow TTL the time between flashes is actually far enough in between that most people with even slow reflexes have the time to blink before the exposure flash fires.

On my Canon system the exposure flash often caught the eyelids halfway down, or up (haven't researched on which way of obvious reasons) But now most peoples eyes are open. - There is no sport in that, so I turned TTL off and never use it again.

 

According to me, the MM have two features that are awful and are not to be used - TTL and the Display.

 

PS: I use the SF 24D flash unit.

[CaptZoom]

I do a lot of Pro portraits, and also group shots with more than 200 people, it's not something I'm postulating...

 

It's a similar system as the Nikon CLS system, you can easily search for more info on that.

 

It's a real setback compared to the good old Flash on Film TTL Way of working regrading people.

For some situations for instance when shooting with more flashes in groups, many pre flash are fired, it has been measured and posted online many years ago when digital cameras where young, sure the later systems are better now but there is a long way to go yet IMHO

 

 

This was never a problem with Film TTL or if working with studio strobes.

Now I switch to manual flash without preflash.... to avoid such problems...

 

Thanks for additional info, though I must note that I was not challenging you. I use studio strobes. If I have to use a speedlite, I use them in either auto or full manual mode. And if I were to by speedlites, they would be from the Lumopro line. That being said, from what I've seen the SF58 works remarkably well with a camera system that does not transfer any distance information via the lens. And yes even with Auto or manual mode with no preflash or AF lamp of any sort, there are people who frakking blink fast enough to get a goofy looking photo.

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[CaptZoom]

Thank you for elaborating. This would be nice:)

 

 

Okay, I will try. We know that the M240 is capable of doing advanced light metering using the sensor as an alternative to the usual metering from the shutter curtain. We also know that hand-held exposure meters are capable of measuring the light from a flash, also in the presence of ambient light. Somehow they are able to distinguish the short pulse of intense light from the level background lighting. Let us assume this ability to detect flash light was incorporated in the M240 advanced light metering through a special algorithm that is invoked when a flash is connected, in TTL mode and ready to fire.

 

The following sequence of events could take place: First the flash and camera shake hands and agree on what protocol to use (i.e. ISO setting, exposure time, flash EV setting etc). The 'ready' sign appears in the viewfinder. You press the trigger. The shutter opens (no pre-flash), the flash fires, the camera detects the incoming pulse of light from the flash reaching the sensor and instructs the flash to switch off when just the right amount of flash light has come in. The camera continues to expose with ambient light until the image is complete. The shutter closes.

 

I.e. in theory it should be entirely possible to do TTL flash entirely without the use of pre-flash. Or maybe not?