arvin Posted March 13, 2014 Share #221 Posted March 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Unlikely but not impossible. Moreover, dust particles may have been inside the camera from the beginning, move around, and eventually end up on the sensor's surface. High ISO? Umm ... are you sure your "spots" really are dust? Oops......I meant small apertures value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 13, 2014 Posted March 13, 2014 Hi arvin, Take a look here Leica M 240 what is going on. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted March 13, 2014 Share #222 Posted March 13, 2014 Dentists are doctors too [...] In the USA, dentists are the most astute business persons in the medical field. They must manage their enterprise all alone as a private affair, and please their clients at the same time. Add to the issue, there are almost no effective insurance plans to adequately cover dentin's' services. Again, speaking of the USA here. It just sucks, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 13, 2014 Share #223 Posted March 13, 2014 A ludicrous, unsubstantiated assertion. Fortunately, there are many other ways to earn enough money to buy a Leica... This is just my opinion. A disproportionate number of Leica owners I have known and met are indeed dentists and other types of doctors. My personal experience is that obstetricians seem to be especially fond of Leicas. Your experience may be different. I believe doctors generally earn less in the U.K. than they do in the U.S., which could be another factor in our differing perceptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Jones Posted March 13, 2014 Share #224 Posted March 13, 2014 I agree with Mark, these kind of statements are generally unsubstantiated. Although it probably wouldn't take long to discount it as a theory, it is quite likely an example of a bias that a group of people could share and propagate. In the end it probably says more about the person with the bias than Leica owners as a group. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted March 13, 2014 Share #225 Posted March 13, 2014 My Doctor uses a Nikon and my dentist uses a Canon. Such is life. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 13, 2014 Share #226 Posted March 13, 2014 I agree with Mark, these kind of statements are generally unsubstantiated. Although it probably wouldn't take long to discount it as a theory, it is quite likely an example of a bias that a group of people could share and propagate. In the end it probably says more about the person with the bias than Leica owners as a group. Perhaps theory, observation, assertion, opinion, but certainly not bias. Who cares if doctors form a substantial portion of the population of Leica owners? All that might possibly mean is that Leica cameras are expensive (which everyone knows is true), and they are generally purchased by those who can afford them without too much financial pain, and by those who really want one of the best photographic tools money can buy despite the cost. Anyway, the "doctor" portion of this thread is well off-topic, so it's probably best to drop it now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 13, 2014 Share #227 Posted March 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Perhaps theory, observation, assertion, opinion, but certainly not bias. Who cares if doctors form a substantial portion of the population of Leica owners? All that might possibly mean is that Leica cameras are expensive (which everyone knows is true), and they are generally purchased by those who can afford them without too much financial pain, and by those who really want one of the best photographic tools money can buy despite the cost. Anyway, the "doctor" portion of this thread is well off-topic, so it's probably best to drop it now. Because I am genuinely curious about this issue, this morning I telephoned a person who has been selling only Leica gear in the U.S. for several decades, and asked him about buyer demographics. He reported that roughly 8 years and more ago, by far the largest buyer demographic for Leica cameras and lenses comprised dentists, medical doctors, and attorneys, some portion of whom were very proficient photographers, and another portion of whom he felt purchased Leica gear because it was expensive (and therefore "must be good"), and who probably, in his opinion, did not use the gear much. He further reported that this demographic has shifted dramatically over the past decade or so, and that today perhaps only 10% of Leica buyers are dentists, doctors and attorneys, and that the remaining 90% of Leica buyers now comprise professional and advanced or "serious" photographers who use Leica gear heavily. He says this latter portion of purchasers now cuts across all demographic groups and socio-economic lines, and reports that many current Leica purchasers scramble to buy Leica gear because they appreciate the quality and results Leica gear delivers, never minding the cost. Finally, he reported that Leica sales since December have been better than at any time in the past, and that the M240 is currently enjoying great success in the US marketplace. That's the best I can do to get at the facts surrounding this admittedly unimportant but nevertheless interesting issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 13, 2014 Share #228 Posted March 13, 2014 We have a dead-end when a person responds to his own posts. STOP THAT! Wait for a response. What do you think you are? Major media? Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 13, 2014 Share #229 Posted March 13, 2014 Because I am genuinely curious about this issue, this morning I telephoned a person who has been selling only Leica gear in the U.S. for several decades, and asked him about buyer demographics. I call bullshit. . Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 13, 2014 Share #230 Posted March 13, 2014 I call bullshit. . Sent from my Etcha-sketch. What does that mean? You think I made this information up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 14, 2014 Share #231 Posted March 14, 2014 What does that mean? You think I made this information up? Yes. Cite your source. Even then he might be bulshitting. Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 14, 2014 Share #232 Posted March 14, 2014 It is an interesting concept that one is obliged to state one’s profession when buying a Leica… How on earth can a salesman possibly know otherwise? Doctors, yes, as they enter the camera store with a stethoscope around their neck, but the rest? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 14, 2014 Share #233 Posted March 14, 2014 What does "serious" photographers mean as opposed to doctors or dentists? Leicas have always been purchased by people who can afford them hence by doctors, dentists, attorneys, engineers and the like. Pro photogs as well if they're wealthy enough but i would be surprised if they represent 50%, let alone 90% of Leica customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 14, 2014 Share #234 Posted March 14, 2014 What does "serious" photographers mean as opposed to doctors or dentists? Leicas have always been purchased by people who can afford them.... Always? May I disagree? In 1965 Leica was expensive, and IMHO over the top in terms of expensive that their lenses and cameras could not be justified. Do you wish to make a point-to-point comparison? Were you even alive then. Signed: Crabby Pico Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 14, 2014 Share #235 Posted March 14, 2014 Been there my friend. Got my first Leica in 1971. More pro photogs did use a Leica then perhaps but basically customers looked pretty well the same. Just my feeling though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 14, 2014 Share #236 Posted March 14, 2014 Yes. Cite your source. Even then he might be bulshitting. Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Pico: You are not only crabby, but a potty mouth. You have now said the cow potty word twice. "The source" told me I could use his name, but I won't involve him or his reputation in an internet "conversation" with a person I don't know. You are of course entitled not to believe the information "the source" conveyed to me. Why this information would bother you or anyone else is a mystery to me. What this all boils down to is that the people who buy Leicas either can afford them, or really want them, which is hardly an earth shattering conclusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woorob Posted March 14, 2014 Share #237 Posted March 14, 2014 Tundraline's observations ring true to me. Back in the day I paid my way through college working as a camera salesman, and was told by Jim Kuehl that I was #1 in Leica sales in the entire central US (including Chicago). A disproportionate number of buyers were from the Mayo Clinic and I had the impression that they rarely used their treasures to take pictures. I loved selling Leica cameras to those who could barely afford the camera but were passionate about photography. And at the end of the day, who really cares what camera took the image as long as it's a great picture? I've got over 20,000 Nikon files in my Lightroom catalogue and six published books (although not all in photography). I just prefer the M for the images it creates. Today the M is expensive so it should hardly be controversial that those with good earnings are buying the camera (as in days past). Sadly it's just that there seems to be less of a middle class these days (in the US at the least) who can afford an expensive camera of any type. But I applaud those who stretch their budget to buy a digital Leica, they are terrific tools but most professionals own two systems anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Jones Posted March 14, 2014 Share #238 Posted March 14, 2014 Perhaps theory, observation, assertion, opinion, but certainly not bias. Who cares if doctors form a substantial portion of the population of Leica owners? All that might possibly mean is that Leica cameras are expensive (which everyone knows is true), and they are generally purchased by those who can afford them without too much financial pain, and by those who really want one of the best photographic tools money can buy despite the cost. Anyway, the "doctor" portion of this thread is well off-topic, so it's probably best to drop it now. You did in the end exactly what I would have done (spoke to a Leica dealer with years of experience) and the information you passed on completely aligned with my guess, the Leica customer base has changed. Thank you for that. You argued with my use of the word 'bias' and I would like to offer this quote and see if it explains my use of the term. It's from the Wiki for "confirmation bias". It shows that theory and observation can serve any pre-existing bias. "Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations). Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted March 14, 2014 Share #239 Posted March 14, 2014 You did in the end exactly what I would have done (spoke to a Leica dealer with years of experience) and the information you passed on completely aligned with my guess, the Leica customer base has changed. Thank you for that. You argued with my use of the word 'bias' and I would like to offer this quote and see if it explains my use of the term. It's from the Wiki for "confirmation bias". It shows that theory and observation can serve any pre-existing bias. "Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations). Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence." Facts and reliable information are important, which is why I consulted someone who would know, and then reported what he had said. He further stated that nowadays most Leica owners have other camera systems that they use because "Leicas are not good at everything" (e.g., sports photography) Nothing he said surprised me, except for the dramatic change in buyer demographics, which appears to coincide roughly with the introduction of digital M cameras. This demographic shift is a very good thing so far as the future viability of Leica as a business enterprise is concerned. I have owned and used Leicas since 1971 (I bought my first Leica, an M3, with paper route earnings), and would hate to see them go away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 14, 2014 Share #240 Posted March 14, 2014 Back in the day I paid my way through college working as a camera salesman, and was told by Jim Kuehl that I was #1 in Leica sales in the entire central US (including Chicago). A disproportionate number of buyers were from the Mayo Clinic and I had the impression that they rarely used their treasures to take pictures. I loved selling Leica cameras to those who could barely afford the camera but were passionate about photography. That must have been after Selwin Schwartz retired. Sent from my Etcha-sketch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.