Dlux6 vs LX7 Don't laugh

[koray]

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Seriously, mates, I am sure this topic was beaten to death, but I have to vent:

 

D-lux 6 G-Star RAW Edition is just a custom paint-job + a leatherette piece stuck on + some stupid wording (... just the product - my a**) + accessories. How could one fall for this cheap marketing trick? I remember, cheap car companies used to do that. Hah!

 

K.

[Lee Martin]

Koray, where were you days ago ?? An experienced insight into the whole story. Thanks for taking the time to put it on here .

[mansio]

sometime ago some website made a comparison between dlux and lumix with the same spec, i believe their conclusion was that the jpeg is more pleasant in the dlux but when shoot in raw they came out identical. so besides the cosmetic leica might have tweaked their firmware other than the logo too. i am not going to find which site that did it and i think the troll is more entertaining than anything else

 

of cause this doesn't mean the dlux6/lx7 has the same conclusion, but there is really no rationale that leica will suddenly went to produce their own dlux from scratch, at all

 

great entertainment guys, keep it up XD

[Guest badbob]

Very entertaining thread, indeed!

 

Dear badbob, I should mention that since their foray into digital cameras Panasonic (used to be Matsushita) have preferred to use their in-house manufactured components and technologies in their cameras (i.e., sensors, LCDs, even capacitors). This meant that for many early years (around 2004-2008) customers had to bear with awful CCD sensors from Matsushita while other brands (i.e. Nikon, Canon) were putting much better Sony sensors into their cameras. The only exception to that was Panasonic LC1 or Leica Digilux 2, which was a serious experiment with a lot of Leica involvement. There a Sony sensor was used - and sadly it was from a batch plagued with bad adhesive, leading to failure under hot-humid conditions. If you know Leica that good, you must know the camera, and the story.

 

Now let me tell you, LC1 and Digilux 2 are identical cameras - except for the external styling and some firmware differences. How do I know? Well, I used to repair them. Inside, they are completely identical. Part numbers, screws, lens assembly, all identical. Now don't start yelling at me like others claiming that I am not working for Leica.

 

Here is another point, that was repeated by others many times: Leica still honors free repairs on Leica Digilux 2 sensors, no questions asked. But Panasonic charges the customers for the repair since all these cameras are out of warranty. This is what you pay for when you get a Leica, premium service - full stop.

 

Now apparently the exterior design of your G-Star camera was contributed by a denim company (this is the first time I hear that brand, by the way), and that is basically what you are paying extra for. Maybe you love G-Star brand, maybe your wardrobe is full of their jeans, I don't know, but seriously, that is what you have paid for. Yes, it is a limited edition camera, but I don't think it will even hold value like others suggest. See Stephen Gandy's (cameraquest) insight into heaps of Leica special, commemorative editions, particularly during the reign of Leica M6: Leica M Investment Guide

 

Stephen Gandy's words:

M6's have been cursed by some ridiculous commemoratives under the guise of making an instant collectible to get the maximum bucks. The one which gets my loudest laughs is the "Royal Danish Wedding" M6. Who can imagine what Solm's marketing geniuses will try to make a buck on, err....commemorate next? I hoped a "Royal Charles and Diana Divorce" Leica would be sure to follow, alas not yet.

 

 

Now let's get back to G-Star D-Lux 6. Where was it made in? JAPAN. Made completely with innards of LX7 - D-lux 6, loaded with some custom software (which Leica has stopped changing much lately, actually), including all accessories and paperwork and boxed in Japan.. But believe me, I am in this repair business and Leica, Panasonic, those compact cameras they all share the exactly same components.

 

Sorry mate. You should have kept that X1. Now that camera is MORE LEICA to me.

 

K.

 

Thanks for the informative post. There are a few people still here who regard a loyal customer of Leica, who promotes Leica ownership, as a troll. People like that have a real problem, and I sure can't help them.

 

I relate to all of the above, which dovetails with my experience, knowing some of those extra values Leica adds. In spite of your informative post, which satisfies me, I'll try to get a more definitive answer from Leica. You see, sometimes it's the very employees inside of the company who don't know about these things. I work in such a company, and we have a campaign ongoing to raise the "Net promoter" quotient of our employees. If my enquiries aren't using the right language or reaching the right ears, I'm flexible enough to adapt.

 

Leica is changing from being a purely luxury brand to creating a sense of purpose in the marketplace, and those changes have some good outcomes, and possible downsides. I see that some people are afraid to quantify some of Leica's added values that don't show on a spec sheet. But in the transition to being a real force in the marketplace, Leica will need to shed some of that conservative shyness and get proactive so the trolls (the anti people I've been running into) don't have free rein to spread the word that they add no value above Panasonic.

[Guest badbob]

sometime ago some website made a comparison between dlux and lumix with the same spec, i believe their conclusion was that the jpeg is more pleasant in the dlux but when shoot in raw they came out identical. so besides the cosmetic leica might have tweaked their firmware other than the logo too. i am not going to find which site that did it and i think the troll is more entertaining than anything else

 

of cause this doesn't mean the dlux6/lx7 has the same conclusion, but there is really no rationale that leica will suddenly went to produce their own dlux from scratch, at all

 

great entertainment guys, keep it up XD

 

I could see the "Leica difference", if that's what it is, with the X1 to a small extent, and with the X Vario to a greater extent. I only shoot JPEGs with the D-Lux6, and even though I have a bag full of images I got with the LX7, I don't see an obvious Leica Difference with the D-Lux6 as yet.

[mansio]

Leica is changing from being a purely luxury brand to creating a sense of purpose in the marketplace, and those changes have some good outcomes, and possible downsides. ...

 

i beg to differ on this statement though, if you look at the brand in price perspective, leica is only more and more deviating away from what once a professional tool to a luxury trophy. what's once something professional use as a tool is nowhere to be found among that said group.

 

as to leica adding value to and charges multiple times more expensive is to the eyes of beholder really. i doubt any leica-added value do not include reliability especially with the lumix/dlux range. personally i would not and will not be bothered with leica's side of lumix at all. M9 feels like it is the first and last true FF digital leica until proven otherwise?

 

it is a losing(but fun) game to say dlux is leica and even a more hilarious to think dlux will be anything special imho. likewise i won't consider any of the lexus model with obvious camry ties, nor acura cx when they are obviously civic with leather-trim. people buying into most lux series are all too similar to buying acer ferrarei netbook

 

with that said i have not own any of the leica/panasonic model before; given if what the past review said is true about their identical raw performance, it is not the red pill i would want to swallow.

[Guest badbob]

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i beg to differ on this statement though, if you look at the brand in price perspective, leica is only more and more deviating away from what once a professional tool to a luxury trophy. what's once something professional use as a tool is nowhere to be found among that said group.

 

as to leica adding value to and charges multiple times more expensive is to the eyes of beholder really. i doubt any leica-added value do not include reliability especially with the lumix/dlux range. personally i would not and will not be bothered with leica's side of lumix at all. M9 feels like it is the first and last true FF digital leica until proven otherwise?

 

it is a losing(but fun) game to say dlux is leica and even a more hilarious to think dlux will be anything special imho. likewise i won't consider any of the lexus model with obvious camry ties, nor acura cx when they are obviously civic with leather-trim. people buying into most lux series are all too similar to buying acer ferrarei netbook

 

with that said i have not own any of the leica/panasonic model before; given if what the past review said is true about their identical raw performance, it is not the red pill i would want to swallow.

 

I think there are some things you miss, from having a limited perspective. Now, I'll say up front that your conclusions that Leica is headed the wrong way may prove to be valid, but then again maybe not. Time will tell. Here is what I think you missed.

 

The first thing is that I came from a Panasonic perspective for digital cameras, entirely small digicams for me, and when I first got hold of a Panasonic LX3, I began to understand where Leica's contribution was. Anyone can argue that the LX3 was purely Panasonic, ditto the LX7, but without Leica's involvement in those two cameras in particular, I expect that Panasonic would either have skipped that camera type, or put out something much cheaper, in cost as well as design. In small digicams a few years ago, the LX3 commanded a lot of awe among serious photographers, which no other small Panasonic camera could claim. I was there, and I remember well.

 

The other thing I think you missed is, irrespective of prices (which are most meaningful to amateurs anyway), are the breakthroughs Leica made on 9/9/2009. You can stack arguments against the X1, M9, and the first 'S' camera until they reach the Moon, and perhaps 99 percent of those arguments would be valid, yet here was a marginal niche camera company actually introducing 3 class-leading cameras at the same time. Now, who else ever did that?

[andybarton]

But none of the above have anything to do with Leica's Panasonic partners.

 

All of the 9/9/09 cameras were real Leicas, and not badge-engineered Panasonics. Panasonic had no input into any of them, unlike the current D-Luxes.

[NZDavid]

I can't believe this thread has gone on for so many pages! What's the fuss all about? Co-operation between Leica and Panasonic is now 12 years old:

 

Matsushita Electric(Panasonic) Introduces "LUMIX, a New Line of Digital Still Cameras with Leica Optics

 

It is nothing new for Leica to work with other manufacturers. For example: Leica CL/Minilta CLE, Fuji Finepix and Leica Digilux early digital compacts. Interesting that Fuji is now producing excellent compact camera like the X100s, X-Pro 1, etc, that are very Leica-like in design. One wonders if Leica should have maintained the collaboration. Nevertheless, Panasonic cameras are excellent.

 

I really like the the D-Lux 5. I had a play with the D-Lux 6 and Panasonic LX-7 in a Tokyo camera shop where you could pick up and try just about any camera (why no LX-6, strange!?) and preferred the feel of the Panasonic.

 

To go back to the OP's question an aeon or so ago, in practical terms different software used in Panasonic and Leica camera variants does produce different results in terms of colour. The D-Lux 5, for example, has Standard, Dynamic, Nature, Smooth, Vibrant, Nostalgic, B+W Standard, Nostalgic, and Smooth, and My Film 1 and 2, and Multi Film. I can't find the LX-7 specs, but would assume they are similar. These are genuinely useful (well, some of them). Mostly I use Dynamic.

 

The LX-7, according to the specs, offers Expressive, Retro, High Key, Low Key, Sepia, Dynamic Monochrome, Impressive Art, High Dynamic, Cross Process, Toy Effect, Miniature Effect, Soft Focus, Star Filter, One Point Color, Radial Defocus, and Smooth Defocus. IMO a typical array of gimmickry concealing some genuinely useful ways of varying the image. Fuji has an array of modes based on its films: Velvia, Provia, Astia.

 

For a real world view and to detect any noticeable different in image rendition, check out: The World's Best Photos of leica and dlux and 6 - Flickr Hive Mind, The World's Best Photos of Leica and d-lux and 5 - Flickr Hive Mind, and The World's Best Photos of lx7 and panasonic - Flickr Hive Mind

[Guest badbob]

But none of the above have anything to do with Leica's Panasonic partners. All of the 9/9/09 cameras were real Leicas, and not badge-engineered Panasonics. Panasonic had no input into any of them, unlike the current D-Luxes.

 

Technically that may be true, but given that we don't really know exactly what is what**, I think there's a case to be made that without Leica, the LX3 through LX7 would not have been made by Panasonic.

 

**I believe that if you went into a courtroom with all of the evidence you could put together that a D-Lux6 is a Panasonic, any competent Leica representative could walk in with their documents and prove that it's a Leica. Certainly from a legal standpoint, and quite possibly from other perspectives too. I also don't know that Panasonic has had no input into the real Leica cameras, ever. That's something that very few people would be willing to bet the farm on. Certainly there is a cross-pollination of ideas and more at Leica and Panasonic that will never see the light of day, unless someone has a case to discover some of those things.

[Lee Martin]

Is this the competent Leica representative (s) that won't reply/respond to your cause now. I'm sure it's time to put this to bed, the winter nights must fly by in some houses !!!!!!

[NZDavid]

More here on the first agreement between Leica and Matsushita (Panasonic):

 

Matsushita, Leica Team Develop Digital Still Cameras : Page 1 of 1 : Dealerscope

 

Matsushita, Leica to join hands on digital cameras. - Free Online Library

 

And a report from Leica on the company's Memorandum of Understanding with Matsushita from 2006: Leica Camera AG - Investor Relations - Financial Reports

 

<<The cooperation concerns the exchange of technical know-how on optical solutions and components of digital cameras. Leica Camera AG is assured to receive digital camera components from Matsushita. The Leica compact cameras business accounted for Euro 16.9 million turnover in the fiscal year 2005/2006 (March 31) and represented a share of 15.8% of the group’s turnover. Digital cameras created in cooperation with Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. are the main part of this growing product group.

 

Further the cooperation includes license agreements, which enable Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. to use the Leica trademark and lens trademarks for certain jointly developed and jointly manufactured lenses.

 

The strategic cooperation is seen as a win-win-model for both companies, which both companies intend to continue with a long-term perspective.>>

[Guest badbob]

I can't believe this thread has gone on for so many pages! What's the fuss all about? Co-operation between Leica and Panasonic is now 12 years old:

 

The fuss had little to do with what you mention. It mostly had to do with certain people making absolutist statements about the D-Lux6 that turned out to be wrong because they forgot to mention certain things. Someone forgets that the D-Lux6 comes with a Lightroom offer, and proclaims that the D-Lux6 is a ripoff because it has zero more value than a Panasonic LX7. The thread is full of misstatements like that.

 

To this moment, the notion that the LX7 and D-Lux6 (cameras only) are identical under the skin has been asserted voluminously here, but none of these assertions or the Web links and documents behind them constitute something you could present in a court as proof. Strong evidence, yes, possibly - but not proof.

 

I won't go off-topic here, but I know examples where far more important people than any of us here have proclaimed far more important things with one thousand percent assurance that they are right, and yet they contradict the very people who are sitting on the facts - facts that can't be examined openly due to trade secrets and other things that would compromise an important relationship.

 

Leica for example, and this is to the very best of my knowledge, assert unambiguously that the D-Lux6 is a Leica camera, period end of sentence. We all understand the relationship with Panasonic, and we all imagine the details of that relationship based on assumptions and assertions that accumulate like any important rumors that aren't specifically refuted.

 

A great deal of the text posted here was intended to convince me (and possibly others) of things that I already knew or assumed, simply because I didn't bother to state them up front. Some I did, and that was ignored in many cases anyway.

 

Look at it this way: I'm a salesman for a big, big camera dealer in a big, big city, and I'm leaning over the glass counter discussing a purchase of a D-Lux6 with a prospective customer. He says: "I've heard this is just a Panasonic with a higher price tag".

 

So, I have to assume he could be a "secret shopper", i.e. an agent of Leica or even Panasonic, who is checking dealers to see what they say. Or he may be an ordinary customer who just wants to know, or anything in between. My job is to represent Leica to this customer, not lie to the person, but not just weasel out of my responsibility by shrugging and saying "Yep - it's a Panasonic all right". If I'm going to sell a D-Lux6, I'm going to do it right - the Leica way. If anyone here doubts what the Leica way is, read their consumer literature.

[NZDavid]

I think Leica secret agents are unlikely! What would they look like? How would they disguise themselves? Mind you, Bill's latest avatar does sport a certain James Bond-like insouciance as evidenced by that cheeky cocktail. And Andy may be jetting off from Airstrip 1 to tackle these anti-Leica forces.

 

Hmm, a local camera dealer said just that: The Panasonic is exactly the same camera as the Leica D-Lux but cheaper. He will have to beware!

[mansio]

sure my perspective is limited, who isn't? lol

 

money generated from Leica certainly saved the company from killing themselves again. be it the Dutch marriage edition or the collaboration with Panasonic. but to say their lux series being Leica is again saying Acura Cx is, well Acura. it's more of a comforting mindset than anything else

 

and what you say about s series and x1 are simply bringing new plate to the table. there are two measures to consider: are they competitive and are they sustainable. with the niche of premium prosumer type cameras resurgence we are sure to see the x series continue. will they make enough to warrant r&d? that I am unsure of. s series is really an undercutting measure against medium format but I have yet to see much of that action yet. as fine as they are in competing against the likes of d800e in post FF world size is still everything. digital back will win every time. who wants a 50mp when they could do 80? Leica's name is not as special in the mf world as one might think. and releasing a product has not bearing a to its success either.

 

Leica's profit model has changed not only because they have an edge but instead they are lacking one. from fine camera and glass to fine glass and brand name. in any way shape of form I think this is comparing Michael Jordan when he won his 6th ring who's the best in the history making history and the one playing in wizard who's good but not much better in the market, but he's still Michael.

 

without Leica lx would still be created. it's a market driven world. and even with Leica's involvement it doesn't make lx7 better by 4folds.

 

it's not to say lux series is a bad camera though. I often recommend them over canon/Nikon too. except for Fuji. and it's not just the glass either. they might say summilux on them but are they really? really? Fuji has their fujinon on their lens too.

 

Leica is a fine brand, but they are a different Leica in the days of digital and certainly it's not the same one I love as much now.

[mansio]

as for proof of lx7 and dlux being the same or different, a few screws could do it. anyone wants to have a biology session here

[Guest badbob]

I think Leica secret agents are unlikely! What would they look like? How would they disguise themselves? Mind you, Bill's latest avatar does sport a certain James Bond-like insouciance as evidenced by that cheeky cocktail. And Andy may be jetting off from Airstrip 1 to tackle these anti-Leica forces.

 

Hmm, a local camera dealer said just that: The Panasonic is exactly the same camera as the Leica D-Lux but cheaper. He will have to beware!

 

So the concept of a corporation sending people into their retail outlets incognito, to check on their appearance, performance, etc. is beyond you? You really do live in a different world from the real one.

[Guest badbob]

as for proof of lx7 and dlux being the same or different, a few screws could do it. anyone wants to have a biology session here

 

And so you, having more intelligence and expertise than all of the folks at Leica and Panasonic, will open up these complex cameras and pronounce "They are totally the same, no doubt about it" - is that right? I don't think so, not until you spend a few centuries studying the intricacies of modern cameras. But you cling to that notion, and perhaps your friends here will support you. But I don't think you'll get published.

[Guest badbob]

sure my perspective is limited, who isn't? lol

 

money generated from Leica certainly saved the company from killing themselves again. be it the Dutch marriage edition or the collaboration with Panasonic. but to say their lux series being Leica is again saying Acura Cx is, well Acura. it's more of a comforting mindset than anything else

 

and what you say about s series and x1 are simply bringing new plate to the table. there are two measures to consider: are they competitive and are they sustainable. with the niche of premium prosumer type cameras resurgence we are sure to see the x series continue. will they make enough to warrant r&d? that I am unsure of. s series is really an undercutting measure against medium format but I have yet to see much of that action yet. as fine as they are in competing against the likes of d800e in post FF world size is still everything. digital back will win every time. who wants a 50mp when they could do 80? Leica's name is not as special in the mf world as one might think. and releasing a product has not bearing a to its success either.

 

Leica's profit model has changed not only because they have an edge but instead they are lacking one. from fine camera and glass to fine glass and brand name. in any way shape of form I think this is comparing Michael Jordan when he won his 6th ring who's the best in the history making history and the one playing in wizard who's good but not much better in the market, but he's still Michael.

 

without Leica lx would still be created. it's a market driven world. and even with Leica's involvement it doesn't make lx7 better by 4folds.

 

it's not to say lux series is a bad camera though. I often recommend them over canon/Nikon too. except for Fuji. and it's not just the glass either. they might say summilux on them but are they really? really? Fuji has their fujinon on their lens too.

 

Leica is a fine brand, but they are a different Leica in the days of digital and certainly it's not the same one I love as much now.

 

Michael Jordan's team were great winners, hence his reputation. But a study of the numbers in the records will show far better players. Or one at least. Michael sells, though. Everyone loves a winner.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Lux

[Guest badbob]

It looks like everyone is ducking that sales scenario. Whatever are you going to tell that customer that 1) Doesn't get you fired, and 2) Doesn't embarrass you in other ways?