Will Leica update to the VF-4 EVF?

[wlaidlaw]

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Could the new EVF escape the motion blur issue in spite of the slow frame rate of the camera?

 

Not unless Leica increase the frame rate I would think. The VF-4 may allow a faster frame rate and drawing rate but the rate would I think be generated by the camera not the VF. It is noticeable how much better the VF-4 is on my EP-5 than on the EP-2. However the actual VF-4 screen is so much better, that I would be prepared to live with some smearing/low frame rate, if I could just use the VF-4 at its full definition and size on the M240.

 

Wilson

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[mjh]

Could the new EVF escape the motion blur issue in spite of the slow frame rate of the camera?

Motion blur depends on the shutter speed, not the frame rate (the camera doesn’t have to stick to a 1/30 s shutterspeed just because the frame rate is 30 fps). And the EVF has nothing to do with this anyway. For what it’s worth, the fastest VF-4 frame rate specified by Olympus is 60 fps; I think it is 120 fps with the VF-2 (at a reduced resolution; at its full resolution it is 60 fps).

[lct]

mjh, i refer to motion blur in the finder image of course, i am not exactly a newbie.

[mjh]

mjh, i refer to motion blur in the finder image of course, i am not exactly a newbie.

And that’s what I was referring to as well. The way to reduce motion blur in the EVF is to use a faster shutter speed. For example, with a frame rate of 30 fps the shutter speed could be 1/30, 1/60, 1/125 s etc.. The frame rate places a lower, not an upper limit on the speed of the electronic shutter. Of course this shutter speed is chosen by the camera, not by the photographer, but if you think the shutter speed is too low, you could suggest a firmware update so the camera would prefer faster shutter speeds, to be compensated for by an increase the amplification of the sensor output.

[lct]

The motion blur in the finder image is independant from the shutter speed. If the camera moves, there is some blur and if the subject matter moves there is some blur as well. The shutter speed changes nothing at that.

[mjh]

The motion blur in the finder image is independant from the shutter speed. If the camera moves, there is some blur and if the subject matter moves there is some blur as well. The shutter speed changes nothing at that.

The speed of the electronic shutter is the only factor determining motion blur. Of course if you increase the frame rate, the camera is forced to also increase the shutter speed, but it could just as well increase the shutter speed without increasing the frame rate, achieving the same effect of preventing motion blur. (I think you are confusing live view shutter speed with the shutter speed of the eventual shot; these are in no way related, not even the shutter – electronic shutter vs. focal-plane shutter – is the same.)

[lct]

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I don't confuse anything. Again, there is some motion blur in the finder image each time anything moves, the subject matter or the camera and this has nothing to do with shutter speed in any way. The only culprit is the sluggish frame rate of the camera.

[jdlaing]

I don't confuse anything. Again, there is some motion blur in the finder image each time anything moves, the subject matter or the camera and this has nothing to do with shutter speed in any way. The only culprit is the sluggish frame rate of the camera.

 

That is smearing and tied to frame rate which is camera driven.......to a limit.

 

You are correct.

[wlaidlaw]

I think there may be confusion between the mechanical shutter of the camera and the electronic shutter of the live view feed to the LCD and EVF and the EVF refresh rate. These are of course wholly independent. The period over which the sensor downloads the LV image will be and has to be less than the refresh rate of the screens. Maybe it is best to think of it in movie terms. At a frame (fps) rate of say 25 frames per second, you may still only have the shutter of the camera open for say 1/125 of a second for each frame. Thus in spite of showing only 25 fps, each separate frame may be sharp to avoid motion blur, as it was taken only over 1/125 of a second.

 

Apologies if this is "teaching grandmother to suck eggs" although I have to admit I never saw my grandmother doing this.

 

Wilson

[mjh]

this has nothing to do with shutter speed in any way.

So you believe there would still be motion blur if the speed of the electronic shutter was 1/125, 1/250 or 1/500 s? How would this even be possible?

[lct]

That's how it is. Take your M240, clip an EVF on it, choose any shutter speed, move your camera around or choose a moving subject matter. You don't even need to shoot since this has nothing to do with shutter speeds. You will see motion blur in the finder image every time. I am surprised that this does not jump out at you.

[mjh]

That's how it is. Take your M240, clip an EVF on it, choose any shutter speed, move your camera around or choose a moving subject matter.

Like I said: You are confusing the user-selectable shutter speed of the focal plane shutter (that is only used for the actual shot) with the camera-selected shutter speed of the electronic shutter used for live view. I am talking about the latter.

 

Since the dynamic range of the sensor is limited, every camera supporting live view must control the exposure in live view mode by adjusting the aperture and/or the shutter speed, or by increasing the amplification if necessary. But since the aperture is out of the M’s control, the only parameters available are shutter speed and amplification. In bright light, the camera chooses a fast shutter speed to control the exposure; otherwise the image on the LCD or the EVF would be all white. When it gets darker the shutter speed is reduced until it hits 1/30 s; it cannot get any slower without reducing the frame rate as well. So the M increases amplification instead, even when that also amplifies noise.

 

Now it would be conceivable to make the minimum shutter speed a use-selectable preference – you could set the mimimum speed to 1/60 or 1/125 s so the camera would start increasing the amplification at that speed and never reach 1/30 s. There would be less blur, if at the expense of some added noise. If you have issues with motion blur in live view mode, suggesting that Leica should implement such an option would make sense.

 

In any case, in the context of using the VF-4 rather than the VF-2 (or Leica’s equivalent), a debate about the frame rate is moot:

 

• The VF-4 doesn’t support higher frame rates than the VF-2 does.
  
• The M is limited to 30 fps and doesn’t support the maximum frame rates supported by either the VF-4 or VF-2.
  
• The higher resolution of the VF-4 already increases the throughput requirements; tweaking the M firmware to support more than 30 fps, increasing the throughput even further, is out of the question.
  

So for better or for worth, 30 fps it is, for now and – as far as the Typ 240 is concerned – probably forever.

[lct]

What confusion? I was just asking if the new EVF would escape the motion blur issue in spite of the slow frame rate of the camera when you felt the need to correct me i don't know why. I take it that you finally acknowledge that the new EVF will indeed change nothing to the motion blur as i suspected.

[jdlaing]

What confusion? I was just asking if the new EVF would escape the motion blur issue in spite of the slow frame rate of the camera when you felt the need to correct me i don't know why. I take it that you finally acknowledge that the new EVF will indeed change nothing to the motion blur as i suspected.

 

The smearing in the newer VF-4 is less than in the VF-2.

[wlaidlaw]

The smearing in the newer VF-4 is less than in the VF-2.

 

I would agree but not noticeably on the older Olympus cameras such as the EP-2. You really only notice the improved smearing on newer cameras such as my EP-5. I wonder therefore if it is down to the VF-4 allowing the camera to write each frame faster to the screen but with the same frame rate. Whether this will change in the M240 and other Leica cameras depends on the interface that Leica have provided between the screen and the video card in the camera. Of course this assumes that Leica will (cross fingers) follow through with the upgrade for the VF-4. I think they would be mad if they did not. The VF-4 will bring the EFV facility on the M240 to a new level.

 

Wilson

[jdlaing]

I would agree but not noticeably on the older Olympus cameras such as the EP-2. You really only notice the improved smearing on newer cameras such as my EP-5. I wonder therefore if it is down to the VF-4 allowing the camera to write each frame faster to the screen but with the same frame rate. Whether this will change in the M240 and other Leica cameras depends on the interface that Leica have provided between the screen and the video card in the camera. Of course this assumes that Leica will (cross fingers) follow through with the upgrade for the VF-4. I think they would be mad if they did not. The VF-4 will bring the EFV facility on the M240 to a new level.

 

Wilson

 

Agreed. I used one on an OMD and it was noticeably less motion smeared. It may have to do with the resolution as well.

[Rick]

The motion blur in the finder image is independant from the shutter speed. If the camera moves, there is some blur and if the subject matter moves there is some blur as well. The shutter speed changes nothing at that.

 

lct - mjh is correct. Motion blur is dependent on shutter speed. The frame rate has nothing to do with motion blur (except in relation to how it forces the up the lower limit of shutter speed).

[lct]

So how do ou call the motion blur you see in your EVF my friend? I'm not the first one to call it this way am i? I seem to recall that Sean Reid called it the same way in his review of the M240. Anyway there is some blur in the finder image when the camera or the subject matter moves and this is due to the slow frame rate of the M240 so that replacing the EVF won't change anything to that i'm afraid.

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[Jeff S]

What confusion? I was just asking if the new EVF would escape the motion blur issue in spite of the slow frame rate of the camera...

 

No offense intended, lct, but you also said that the issue had nothing to do with the shutter speed "you choose" (post #111). And mjh clarified his point by stating that while blur is not influenced by the shutter speed you select directly on the dial, it has a lot to do with the electronic shutter speed the camera uses for live view.

 

mjh is not discounting the EVF blur you note, merely explaining its basis.

 

Perhaps you weren't confused on that issue, but I found the clarification helpful in the discussion.

 

Jeff

[AlanJW]

Why the confusion? Aren't we talking about two different motion blurs? One is in the EVF and is driven by the frame rate the camera and EVF can produce and relates solely to the image you can see in the EVF. The other is motion blur in the captured image if the shutter speed is too slow. As I understand it, you can have motion blur in the EVF even if the shutter speed is 1/1000 and there is no blur in the captured image. The viewfinder frame rate and the shutter speed are entirely different. Am I missing something?