M240 liveview and focus confirmation in optical viewfinder

[dugby]

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Last night at our local M240 launch, got to play with the M240.

 

Question for Leica and a potential firmware change.......

 

With Liveview enabled, would it be possible to provide some visual "focus confirmation" in the optical viewfinder ?

 

Eg maybe have the frameline switch to the alternating colour "Red to White" or "White to Red" at the moment of focus ?

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[digitalfx]

First, what you are asking is not possible, but the real question is why are you looking thru the rangefinder when using LV?

 

LV is strictly for the back LCD or the EVF. If you turn on focus peaking you will see a red edged highlight when you are in focus. LV can also zoom in 5X or 10X to assist automatically.

 

You either use the rangefinder (optical finder) or LV, but not both.

[01af]

With live view enabled, would it be possible to provide some visual "focus confirmation" in the optical viewfinder?

You're getting some visual focus confirmation in the viewfinder always—be the live view enabled or not.

[dugby]

First, what you are asking is not possible, but the real question is why are you looking thru the rangefinder when using LV?

 

I don't want to hold the M like a phone-camera with out-stretched arms, I want to hold the M to my face to get optimum bracing, but want to know if the M240's RF can utilise the electronic focus confirmation signals that LV determined.

 

I do understand that there is very limited electronics in the RF, so was directing this question to leica M240 developers.

 

 

LV is strictly for the back LCD or the EVF. If you turn on focus peaking you will see a red edged highlight when you are in focus. Yes we saw that last night with the M240s we played with.

 

You either use the rangefinder (optical finder) or LV, but not both....... Sorry disagree, LV does not exclude one from continued use of the RF.

[dugby]

You're getting some visual focus confirmation in the viewfinder always—be the live view enabled or not.

 

I have been using RF's since 1970, so am familiar.

 

But with aging eye sight, the opportunity for a flash of colour for "focus confirmation" in the RF would be useful.

[digitalfx]

First, what you are asking is not possible, but the real question is why are you looking thru the rangefinder when using LV?

 

I don't want to hold the M like a phone-camera with out-stretched arms, I want to hold the M to my face to get optimum bracing, but want to know if the M240's RF can utilise the electronic focus confirmation signals that LV determined.

 

I do understand that there is very limited electronics in the RF, so was directing this question to leica M240 developers.

 

 

LV is strictly for the back LCD or the EVF. If you turn on focus peaking you will see a red edged highlight when you are in focus. Yes we saw that last night with the M240s we played with.

 

You either use the rangefinder (optical finder) or LV, but not both....... Sorry disagree, LV does not exclude one from continued use of the RF.

 

well of course not, but its kinda silly to use both. Why do you even have LV on if your using the rangefinder?

LV slows the camera down, so typically you ether use it or use the rangefinder.

 

regardless, what you are asking is impossible in this camera.

 

Sounds like you just need to use the EVF

[01af]

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I have been using RFs since 1970, so am familiar.

Oh?

 

 

But with aging eye sight, the opportunity for a flash of colour for "focus confirmation" in the RF would be useful.

Okay—imagine you were the Leica M product manager, and it's your job to tell the engineers what to do. When exactly do you want the framelines to flash?

[dugby]

Oh?

 

 

 

Okay—imagine you were the Leica M product manager, and it's your job to tell the engineers what to do. When exactly do you want the framelines to flash?

 

I understand that the framelines already have been programmed to be either red or white, depending on settings.

 

Eg maybe have the frameline could switch to the alternating colour "Red to White" or "White to Red" at the moment of focus ?

[01af]

... at the moment of focus?

Okay. Define "moment of focus." What's that, exactly?

[dugby]

Okay. Define "moment of focus." What's that, exactly?

 

I also understand and saw last night, when LV is enable and focus is achieved, there is already "red highlighting" in the LCD image at that moment.

 

So this is the moment and electronic signal that I am asking if Leica development could be translate to my suggestion of a colour change in the RF's framelines. (either Red to white, or white to red, depending on the existing frameline settings).

[digitalfx]

Think about what you are asking for. So you want it to flash when what is in focus?

 

The feature you are asking for exists. Use the EVF.

 

What you are describing in the optical finder is magic...its not possible.

[01af]

... when [...] focus is achieved ...

Focus is always "achieved" ... somewhere. How would the camera know when you think focus was achieved? The condition "focus is achieved" depends on what exactly you intend to focus on. How would the camera read your mind?

[dugby]

I am sorry, thirty years of hardware, software and firmware development/testing got me to ask such questions.

 

 

I used the EVF last night too, and that experience got me thinking about what I have written in this thread.

[01af]

I am sorry, thirty years of hardware, software and firmware development/testing got me to ask such questions.

Oh—good you're telling us. Because I was just about to say, 'apparently you're not an engineer.'

 

 

I used the EVF last night too, and that experience got me thinking about what I have written in this thread.

The existing focus-confirmation methods—i. e. the rangefinder patch in the optical viewfinder and the focus-peaking feature in the electronic viewfinder—both tell you where focus currently is ... not when. The 'when' part of the equation only exists in the photographer's mind.

[dugby]

Focus is always "achieved" ... somewhere. How would the camera know when you think focus was achieved? The condition "focus is achieved" depends on what exactly you intend to focus on. How would the camera read your mind?

 

Are you saying that when LV is used on the M240, and the "red image highlighting" that was indicated upon focussing, in the LCD was not focus confirmation ?

 

If that is the case, my bad misunderstanding for what I saw in the M240/EVF that I was using last night.

[01af]

... my bad misunderstanding for what I saw in the M (Typ 240)'s EVF that I was using last night.

That's what I'm trying to say.

[Rick]

dugby -

 

What they are saying is this: Let's say you were in a restaurant and you wanted to take a picture of the bartender. You turn on live view, hold your camera up and frame your picture. You note that the bottles behind the bartender are flashing red. In your scenario, the RF frame lines would be flashing as well. Then you focus on the bartender's glasses and the shimmering red is now on his glasses - the RF frame lines are flashing again.

 

In both cases the flashing RF lines tell you that something is in focus, but they don't tell you when what you want is in focus. By just flashing the RF lines every time something is in focus won't tell you when you have achieved correct focus - it will just tell you something in the LV is shimmering red.

[dugby]

dugby -

 

What they are saying is this: Let's say you were in a restaurant and you wanted to take a picture of the bartender. You turn on live view, hold your camera up and frame your picture. You note that the bottles behind the bartender are flashing red. In your scenario, the RF frame lines would be flashing as well. Then you focus on the bartender's glasses and the shimmering red is now on his glasses - the RF frame lines are flashing again.

 

In both cases the flashing RF lines tell you that something is in focus, but they don't tell you when what you want is in focus. By just flashing the RF lines every time something is in focus won't tell you when you have achieved correct focus - it will just tell you something in the LV is shimmering red.

 

Rick, thankyou for your response.

 

I may be a bit misguided, but I thought last night when I was using both the M (Type 240) with EVF and LCD and LV enabled, that there was some analytics going on.

 

Your scenario above is akin to that what we were doing last night. Focusing on a non-moving object, and I thought the red-shimmering in the LCD image was "LV analytics telling me this object is in focus"

 

I must have mis-understood the Leica product manager's explanation of the "LCD shimmering red indicator" when we were discussing it last night.

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[BerndReini]

Rick, this was a great example of how we should conduct ourselves on this forum. I just read through this post and realized immediately where the misunderstanding happened. You explained the problem in a very polite and understandable manner for the OP without making anyone feel stupid. This is what I call constructive use of the forum.

[Jeff S]

IIRC, Canon did use 'eye controlled focus' in some slr's based on infrared detection of eye movements. At the rate things are going, I anticipate Leica will introduce this feature with flashing frame lines in a future M [called by users the the M-I (eye) ], but probably just denoted as type 940.

 

Jeff

 

Sorry, Bernd...just humor...aimed at Leica, not the OP