jerzy Posted May 7, 2013 Share #1 Posted May 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) In the thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/218819-fontenelle-archives-91-leica-250-prototypes.html Pecole described search after the 2 prototypes (114051 and 114052) and published a photo of 114052, chrom plated. Yesterday a seller from Berlin sold black 114052 (item 350780239363). Unfortunately there are no pictures showing precisely the SN. In another 2 auctions everready case and Summar were sold. The black one seem to have some details of the later models (FF), however obviously missing long time escape. Faked? or yet another unknown prototype? jerzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Hi jerzy, Take a look here Leica 250 Reporter 114052. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted May 7, 2013 Share #2 Posted May 7, 2013 I'd bet for a fake... but for such items my firm idea is that a very close hands on inspection is the only way to be able (maybe) to say something sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted May 8, 2013 Share #3 Posted May 8, 2013 :confused:one prototype is on the auction list of Westlich item 67 but there are some duplicated numbers around WestLicht Photographica Auction: Foto-Auktionen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertwipsy Posted May 8, 2013 Share #4 Posted May 8, 2013 Having studied the history of the Leica 250 Reporter in detail, I´d also bet for a fake. First of all, the history of the prototypes 114051 and 114052 is very thoroughly documented by Pecole in the thread cited by Jerzy so that in my opinion there is little room for the assumption that a third prototype with a serial number identical to the second one might exist. However, I have contacted the seller and have sent him the link to Pecole´s documentation asking some questions about the camera. I did not receive an answer. IMHO a serious/honest seller who has got nothing to hide should have responded. Furthermore, some months ago a Leica 250FF has been offered by a seller in Berlin. Since the style of the pictures and the descriprition in the former offer was (except for the differences between the 250FF and the "prototype") identical to the present offer, I am quite sure that the seller is/was the same, however, using a different eBay account now. In the 250FF case I emailed the seller twice asking for a personal inspection of the camera in Berlin. Since the adress of the seller was quoted in the former offer, I also tried to contact him by telephone leaving several messages on his mailbox. Like in the present case, I never received a reaction. Again, a serious/honest seller who has got nothing to hide should have reacted?! In result, IMHO quite strange circumstances in both offers. In any case, for me too many inconsistencies to spend so much money for a camera with doubtful provenience. Best regards Carsten Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted May 8, 2013 Share #5 Posted May 8, 2013 Having studied the history of the Leica 250 Reporter in detail, I´d also bet for a fake. First of all, the history of the prototypes 114051 and 114052 is very thoroughly documented by Pecole in the thread cited by Jerzy so that in my opinion there is little room for the assumption that a third prototype with a serial number identical to the second one might exist. However, I have contacted the seller and have sent him the link to Pecole´s documentation asking some questions about the camera. I did not receive an answer. IMHO a serious/honest seller who has got nothing to hide should have responded. Furthermore, some months ago a Leica 250FF has been offered by a seller in Berlin. Since the style of the pictures and the descriprition in the former offer was (except for the differences between the 250FF and the "prototype") identical to the present offer, I am quite sure that the seller is/was the same, however, using a different eBay account now. In the 250FF case I emailed the seller twice asking for a personal inspection of the camera in Berlin. Since the adress of the seller was quoted in the former offer, I also tried to contact him by telephone leaving several messages on his mailbox. Like in the present case, I never received a reaction. Again, a serious/honest seller who has got nothing to hide should have reacted?! In result, IMHO quite strange circumstances in both offers. In any case, for me too many inconsistencies to spend so much money for a camera with doubtful provenience. Best regards Carsten Agree 100%. I saw others similar rarity in the past, I have a strong idea regarding origin. I also wrote to the seller...no response: I requested for some better photos : again , no response! He sold military and luxus (gold plated) cameras not long ago in the same way. I mean no detailed photos, no responses to requests even if in my opinion those counterfeit items were very ridiculously done. He always show only very little images without more details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideB Posted May 8, 2013 Share #6 Posted May 8, 2013 The seller's other identity is Meine eBay Welt - camerasplusthings I know this because a few years ago he was selling a very convincing looking Leica Luxus. The bizarre thing was he just described it as a Leica I camera with no mention of the gold finish. Of course I checked the number and found it was on the list of authentic Luxus models. When I googled it I discovered another Berlin seller Imaginghistory selling a red Leica box with the same serial number and the Leica code Lessalux stamped on the bottom. Again it looked perfectly authentic. He was also selling a gold rangefinder which I presume came with the same camera. All three auctions were ending on the same day. I tipped off a collector friend who contacted the seller and asked whether the camera was genuine or a replica. He was told it was a replica but with no further explanation. After carefully examining the photographs he concluded the camera itself was an original Leica. I can't remember what the camera sold for but it was just a fraction of the price of a genuine Luxus. Clearly the seller was careful not to misrepresent the camera. I am still kicking myself for not buying the box which I am quite satisfied was a genuine Leica carton from the 1920s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertwipsy Posted May 8, 2013 Share #7 Posted May 8, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) The seller's other identity is Meine eBay Welt - camerasplusthings I know this because a few years ago he was selling a very convincing looking Leica Luxus. The bizarre thing was he just described it as a Leica I camera with no mention of the gold finish. Of course I checked the number and found it was on the list of authentic Luxus models. When I googled it I discovered another Berlin seller Imaginghistory selling a red Leica box with the same serial number and the Leica code Lessalux stamped on the bottom. Again it looked perfectly authentic. He was also selling a gold rangefinder which I presume came with the same camera. All three auctions were ending on the same day. I tipped off a collector friend who contacted the seller and asked whether the camera was genuine or a replica. He was told it was a replica but with no further explanation. After carefully examining the photographs he concluded the camera itself was an original Leica. I can't remember what the camera sold for but it was just a fraction of the price of a genuine Luxus. Clearly the seller was careful not to misrepresent the camera. I am still kicking myself for not buying the box which I am quite satisfied was a genuine Leica carton from the 1920s. That`s exactly the eBay identity I was referring to. (I had forgotten but remembered instantly when reading your post). All in all, hard to believe that the sold camera is genuine. And hard to believe that the seller was offering it in good faith?! Hopefully, the buyer reads this thread prior to payment... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted May 8, 2013 Share #8 Posted May 8, 2013 In the thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/218819-fontenelle-archives-91-leica-250-prototypes.html Pecole described search after the 2 prototypes (114051 and 114052) and published a photo of 114052, chrom plated.Yesterday a seller from Berlin sold black 114052 (item 350780239363). Unfortunately there are no pictures showing precisely the SN. In another 2 auctions everready case and Summar were sold. The black one seem to have some details of the later models (FF), however obviously missing long time escape. Faked? or yet another unknown prototype? jerzy Hi, Jerzy. If really "serialled" 114052, the Berlin thing is definitely a fake. It is a pity that no photo was available, since the real prototype - next to being chrome plated - is easily recognized by its top fairing and winding knob, and the absence of both slow speeds dial and strap lugs. The photos published by Jim Lager are mine and such acknowledged (Pecole is my nickname, my name being Pierre Jeandrain). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 8, 2013 Share #9 Posted May 8, 2013 That`s exactly the eBay identity I was referring to. (I had forgotten but remembered instantly when reading your post). All in all, hard to believe that the sold camera is genuine. And hard to believe that the seller was offering it in good faith?! Hopefully, the buyer reads this thread prior to payment... Well... me too hope for him... but I think that if one is so SILLY to have paid THAT amount , for SUCH a camera, based ONLY on an ebay ad.... sorry but in a certain sense he has got what he deserves... Some yars ago a (not primary) italian dealer showed to me a chrome 250 he had in his shop : he told me - Surely is, at least, based on a real Leica - s/n "fits" but I cannot assure you it has not been re-engraved - I don't know well the people who gave it to me on commission sale, and he can give me no proof of genuinity nor legitimate property. On those premises, you can pay me 1200 Euros and take it with you. I thanked him and went away without the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted May 8, 2013 Share #10 Posted May 8, 2013 When you buy an important item it's always important to ask a specialist to check the number engraved inside. It's a little expensive but well worth. I speak from personal experience: many surprises guaranteed even from wellknown top sellers . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted May 8, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted May 8, 2013 this is very correct, to check the SN engraved inside, although I found few II and IIIs with no number around the viewfinder assembly, under the top cover. And there was no doubt that they were authentic. Seller must have known precisely what he was selling, even Wikipedia says 114052 is chrome. I was really considering to bid, but when I looked into Pecole's documentation and photos I resigned - thank you Pecole!@JC - the prototype offered by Westlicht is THE one of prototypes, looking at accessory shoe you may see the same signs of use as on Pecole photos. And as well the price is in relation to the rarity, I believe (well beyond my budget) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 25, 2013 Share #12 Posted May 25, 2013 Maybe I should email the buyer of this Reporter to ask if he would like to buy my Luftwaffe Model II. It must be genuine, as it cost all of $40 in Kiev. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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