mjh Posted August 1, 2013 Share #61 Posted August 1, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would assume that the limitation here is not a firmware issue but that the sensor itself cannot be powered for more than 60 sec. The sensor can be powered for much longer times in live view or movie mode, and even be read out 24 to 30 times a second during that time (read-out consumes power while just letting the sensor collect photons does not). But then, exposure times are much shorter in these modes. What is relevant here is how much noise you get with increasing exposure times, and short of assuming that Leica has no idea that some photographers would like to expose for several minutes, the only explanation of the limits imposed by the firmware is that these reflect limitations of the sensor hardware. The elusive Peter (PetersDreams) did suggest that he had managed to expose for more than 60 secs; if that was true he could show his results so we could see whether extended exposure times might be practical. But since he has gone into hiding after making this claim, I tend to believe he only wanted to tease us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 Hi mjh, Take a look here M 240 long exposure Bulb modus. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaques Posted August 2, 2013 Share #62 Posted August 2, 2013 The sensor can be powered for much longer times in live view or movie mode, and even be read out 24 to 30 times a second during that time (read-out consumes power while just letting the sensor collect photons does not). But then, exposure times are much shorter in these modes. What is relevant here is how much noise you get with increasing exposure times, and short of assuming that Leica has no idea that some photographers would like to expose for several minutes, the only explanation of the limits imposed by the firmware is that these reflect limitations of the sensor hardware. MJH: do you think it likely that Leica just made an arbitrary decision that beyond 60 seconds the amount of noise was simply unacceptable? Do you think that means that the sensor likely produced a lot more noise than the previous M9 one? I think it is a shame if Leica made a decision like that for us- I would like to decide how much noise I can tolerate. After all Leica thought ISO 2500 was good enough to include in the camera even though it was very noisy... True I rarely used it: but I preferred that it was there in any case... and one time I had to use it and it produced results that were OK for what I needed. Does anyone think it would be worth petitioning Leica to either comment on the need for the limitation and/or consider changing it with a firmware update? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gilgamesh Posted August 2, 2013 Share #63 Posted August 2, 2013 I've tried about every possibility and not gone beyond 60 seconds. Unimpressed. The idea of "C", Self timer and such-like to achieve 61 seconds + is not correct on my M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 2, 2013 Share #64 Posted August 2, 2013 MJH: do you think it likely that Leica just made an arbitrary decision that beyond 60 seconds the amount of noise was simply unacceptable? Do you think that means that the sensor likely produced a lot more noise than the previous M9 one? I can only assume they have made an informed decision; I haven’t seen any exposures longer than 60 secs myself, and I don’t know about the dark current figures for the Max sensor either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted August 2, 2013 Share #65 Posted August 2, 2013 I can only assume they have made an informed decision; I haven’t seen any exposures longer than 60 secs myself, and I don’t know about the dark current figures for the Max sensor either. I don't think the decision was uninformed. However, there was also an informed decision to allow exposures up to 240 sec on the M9. I had actually used that for some night shots, and yes there is noise, but that is expected. I was not disappointed in the results because disappointment is a function of expectation. Is the CMOS sensor more sensitive to heat, and noisier than the M9 CCD? If not, I don't understand the reasoning behind the change from 240 sec to 60 sec (or shorter). Almost every camera I have used also allows turning off the blank noise reduction frame at the user's option. Of course, users are warned that this can significantly increase noise. That is not an option for Leica users, and IMHO it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicolas Soldati Posted August 2, 2013 Share #66 Posted August 2, 2013 I don't think the decision was uninformed. However, there was also an informed decision to allow exposures up to 240 sec on the M9. I had actually used that for some night shots, and yes there is noise, but that is expected. I was not disappointed in the results because disappointment is a function of expectation. Is the CMOS sensor more sensitive to heat, and noisier than the M9 CCD? If not, I don't understand the reasoning behind the change from 240 sec to 60 sec (or shorter). Almost every camera I have used also allows turning off the blank noise reduction frame at the user's option. Of course, users are warned that this can significantly increase noise. That is not an option for Leica users, and IMHO it should be. +1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgm Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share #67 Posted August 3, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't think the decision was uninformed. However, there was also an informed decision to allow exposures up to 240 sec on the M9. I had actually used that for some night shots, and yes there is noise, but that is expected. I was not disappointed in the results because disappointment is a function of expectation. Is the CMOS sensor more sensitive to heat, and noisier than the M9 CCD? If not, I don't understand the reasoning behind the change from 240 sec to 60 sec (or shorter).. I think an additional severe limitation is that 60 s can only be used at base ISO 200. In principle you can underexpose by a few stops at ISO 200 and than push by the same number in the raw converter. I did that test at a local Leica dealer, it works, but from the results I would conclude that the noise is quite high. This was not a scientific carefull test, I could not repeat and I would not dare to draw any final conclusion. But it would be very interesting to hear if an owner of an M could repeat the test and show images underexposed by let say 5 stops and than pushed in the raw converter by 5 stops to ISO 6400. I would be very curious to see the results. Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arka Posted February 3, 2014 Share #68 Posted February 3, 2014 I tried what jaapv suggested on my M. The shutter stays open as long as I want... On "S" it closes the shutter after 60 sec On self timer (set to 2sec) ... it does not ... :-) In both cases it then goes and applies the black frame subtraction (60sec). Where in the "hidden" "T" mode it does something before that which takes approx. the time difference between the time the shutter was open and 60 sec. The display stays black, but the red light is on. Cheers Peter You were able to accomplish this on an M240? What firmware version? I tried it on both timer settings and the longest I can get is 60s. I'm really enjoying this camera, but I only became aware of this limitation today while shooting some long-exposure landscapes. It was quite annoying to discover it by surprise, as I've never had a camera that couldn't shoot for more than 16s. Leica really should not call it bulb mode with it's really 16-60s mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted February 3, 2014 Share #69 Posted February 3, 2014 That doesn't work for me either... Are you sure it kept open? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted December 20, 2015 Share #70 Posted December 20, 2015 This is one of the main problems I'm having with my M240. I love the Leica wideangle lenses, but long time night exposure just aren't possible. Please Leica, fix this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giulio Zanni Posted December 20, 2015 Share #71 Posted December 20, 2015 Max 60 sec. exposure in B mode on a CMOS sensor does not make sense. Even compact cameras can expose longer. This is cutting the legs to landscape and fine art photographers. Leica should fix this through firmware update. Giulio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted December 21, 2015 Share #72 Posted December 21, 2015 I know Leica isn't going to change this, but I really feel that putting "B" on the dial is fraud when it only goes for a minute or two. no it's not. otherwise it would say, "a minute". or "two". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted December 21, 2015 Share #73 Posted December 21, 2015 It seems to be a good idea to start a petition. The M is such a good camera, but the missing bulb mode and the dark frame made me purchase a Fuji X which otherwise seems redundant. Does anyone know of a petition which is already active? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2015 Share #74 Posted December 21, 2015 I don't think a petition would be very effective for a camera that is near the end of its sales run. Quite apart from the fact that there might be a hardware limitation. As for the noise reduction,you only need to compare a long exposure frame with and without black frame reduction to see why Leica implemented it. There is no way to get the same result in software. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giulio Zanni Posted December 21, 2015 Share #75 Posted December 21, 2015 I don't think a petition would be very effective for a camera that is near the end of its sales run. Quite apart from the fact that there might be a hardware limitation. As for the noise reduction,you only need to compare a long exposure frame with and without black frame reduction to see why Leica implemented it. There is no way to get the same result in software. Considering Leica prices, suggesting to wait for the next model when a simple firmwre update could fix the issue is not very sensitive. The same problem can be found on my monochrome typ 246. I think that leica, if it aims at setting itself as an iconic photographic tool, at least owes an explanation. If they think that the M is just for taking snapshots of wired people in the street they should say it, and other photographers will look somewhere else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkR440 Posted December 21, 2015 Share #76 Posted December 21, 2015 I think the reason why they limit it to 60 sec is the body. I made a lot of long exposure pictures with my M9-P and also with the first Monochrom, both of these cameras had a limit of 240 sec. But it was a bit tricky to get good pictures because there are some light leaks that had to be covered. It took me quiet some time to find out how to cover them and I also sent an email to Leica complaining about this. I didn't get any useful answer, but I had the feeling that they are aware of the problem. The easiest way for them to solve this with the M 240 was to limit the max shutter speed to 60 sec. and tell the people something like that it is not possible to have a longer shutter speed with that kind of sensor. Now they showed up with the new SL, a proper sealed case that also has a CMOS sensor inside... and what a surprise with the SL you can have a much longer shutter speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 21, 2015 Share #77 Posted December 21, 2015 Considering Leica prices, suggesting to wait for the next model when a simple firmwre update could fix the issue is not very sensitive. The same problem can be found on my monochrome typ 246. I think that leica, if it aims at setting itself as an iconic photographic tool, at least owes an explanation. If they think that the M is just for taking snapshots of wired people in the street they should say it, and other photographers will look somewhere else. Dreaming... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giulio Zanni Posted December 21, 2015 Share #78 Posted December 21, 2015 I think the reason why they limit it to 60 sec is the body. I made a lot of long exposure pictures with my M9-P and also with the first Monochrom, both of these cameras had a limit of 240 sec. But it was a bit tricky to get good pictures because there are some light leaks that had to be covered. It took me quiet some time to find out how to cover them and I also sent an email to Leica complaining about this. I didn't get any useful answer, but I had the feeling that they are aware of the problem. The easiest way for them to solve this with the M 240 was to limit the max shutter speed to 60 sec. and tell the people something like that it is not possible to have a longer shutter speed with that kind of sensor. Now they showed up with the new SL, a proper sealed case that also has a CMOS sensor inside... and what a surprise with the SL you can have a much longer shutter speed. You have light leaks with most of the cameras, which has nothing to do with the sensor. With the Sony A7r I use a rain cover, with the Canon 5D I have to put tape on the viewfinder, with the Monochrom typ 246 I have to use an hair elastic bend to cover the lens bayonet even with a max 60 sec exposure. I haven't tried the SL but I wouldn't be surprised if it had light leaks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkR440 Posted December 21, 2015 Share #79 Posted December 21, 2015 Would be interesting to see how the SL long exposure pictures look like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted December 21, 2015 Share #80 Posted December 21, 2015 Considering Leica prices, suggesting to wait for the next model when a simple firmwre update could fix the issue is not very sensitive. The same problem can be found on my monochrome typ 246. I think that leica, if it aims at setting itself as an iconic photographic tool, at least owes an explanation. If they think that the M is just for taking snapshots of wired people in the street they should say it, and other photographers will look somewhere else. Thanks for chiming in Jaap and Guilioz, Jaap, I understand your opinion about the Leica M240 and the derivates (like the M246 and M262) beeing in the end of their lifecycles, but this is not a product like a compact camera which is released every year and you just trade in for the newer model. Sure, a digital Leica might not be the camera for a lifetime, like it once used to be (blame digital technology for that), but still Leica should support their customers after a new model is released. A prime example for me is Fuji. Even after releasing a new X100 camera every year the firmware updates keep coming. If you look at IT products Apple's iPhone is another prime example. Update the old to keep the customers happy. One should remember that Leica is not just selling camera bodies but also lenses (which would benefit if one could use a true bulb mode). Giulioz, I totally agree with you. Leica owes clear communication to their customers because they are selling a premium product which should not be obsolete right before the end of its product life. Either providing a firmware update which enables the use of true long time exposures or a statement why it's not possible is needed. PS: I don't think the sensors can be the limiting factor. A Canon 5D classic (CCD sensor) allows you to take 15min exposures in bulb mode. Modern CMOS sensors do as well (Fuji X series, Leica SL, DSLRs etc.). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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