tgm Posted May 5, 2013 Share #1 Posted May 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) It seems that the maximum exposure time of the M 240 in bulb mode depends on ISO setting, for ISO 200 it is 60 sec, for 1600 and above only 8 sec. In principle using 200 ISO and +3 stops exposure compensation that would give ISO 1600 and I am hoping that I can expose for 60 sec. Will that work? many thanks for your comments in advance Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Hi tgm, Take a look here M 240 long exposure Bulb modus. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Laki Posted May 5, 2013 Share #2 Posted May 5, 2013 It seems that the maximum exposure time of the M 240 in bulb mode depends on ISO setting, for ISO 200 it is 60 sec, for 1600 and above only 8 sec. In principle using 200 ISO and +3 stops exposure compensation that would give ISO 1600 and I am hoping that I can expose for 60 sec. Will that work? many thanks for your comments in advance Thomas page 188 of the manual: "With the B setting, the shutter remains open for as long as the shutter release button is held down (up to a maximum of 60s; depending on the ISO setting)." as for the rest of your question, just spare the 60s and try it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgm Posted May 5, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted May 5, 2013 page 188 of the manual: "With the B setting, the shutter remains open for as long as the shutter release button is held down (up to a maximum of 60s; depending on the ISO setting)." as for the rest of your question, just spare the 60s and try it. Thanks a lot, the key point ,depending on the ISO setting'. Actually, I don't own an M 240 jet, but I would like to know that before purchaising one, because I do a lot of night time shooting, that's why I asked. Thomas p.s. Do you think that it is a clever idea that Leica restrict the shutter opening time depending on ISO setting? I don't know other manufacture following such strange policy. What could be the reason? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 5, 2013 Share #4 Posted May 5, 2013 Do you think that it is a clever idea that Leica restrict the shutter opening time depending on ISO setting? I don't know other manufacture following such strange policy. What could be the reason? In a nutshell: Higher ISO setting —> more noise; long exposure time —> more noise; high ISO and long exposure time —> bad idea. And Leica isn’t the only vendor limiting bulb mode based on the ISO setting; Pentax and Sigma come to mind and there may be others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted May 5, 2013 Share #5 Posted May 5, 2013 (edited) Seriously, 60 seconds in bulb? Wow, that is not much time if you are trying to impart certain effects that would require more than that, even the X100S will do up to an hour in bulb. I seem to recall the M9 might have gone longer as well, I did some night shots that I think were around 3-5 minutes for a corporate client when I had it. I wonder if it has to do with the processing engine and battery requirements together, I doubt it is a limitation of the sensor. Edited May 5, 2013 by KM-25 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foto-Leben Posted May 5, 2013 Share #6 Posted May 5, 2013 The maximum exposure with the M9 (bulb) is 240 sec. That is independant of the ISO setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Fines Posted May 6, 2013 Share #7 Posted May 6, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know Leica isn't going to change this, but I really feel that putting "B" on the dial is fraud when it only goes for a minute or two. This is not "Bulb" mode, but "our camera can't do long exposures even though most every other camera on the market can, but we don't want to break with tradition" mode Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 6, 2013 Share #8 Posted May 6, 2013 This is terrible news... I thought it was bad enough that it could only do 60 seconds... I never realised that it is even less at higher ISO's. I have done many long exposures on my M9 up to the full 240 seconds. Thinking about this and the M240 I though at least I will be able to use a higher ISO at 60 seconds... But apparently no? There are now quite a few annoying limitations of this camera appearing. More and more I think it is the first of a new type, unfinished- and that I would be better off waiting for the next iteration of the design- or another manufacturer to enter the M mount market directly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2013 Share #9 Posted May 6, 2013 Well, it is better that this is clearly set out before buying than that it comes as a surprise after purchase. If this is an essential part of your photography it means you are not the target audience for this camera, I fear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted May 6, 2013 Share #10 Posted May 6, 2013 Not being a technical expert I really don't understand why there is this limit of 60s when the M9 with CCD sensor can do 240s. While this is no deal breaker for me as I have only used this feature a couple of times I would like to understand why this is, Maybe an email to leica technical is in order Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2013 Share #11 Posted May 6, 2013 I don't understand why either, but I am sure the decision was taken for a reason. Leica is knowledgeable enough about photography to understand the limitation this imposes on some photographers, so curtailing B must have been done knowingly in a balancing of arguments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted May 6, 2013 Share #12 Posted May 6, 2013 If this is an essential part of your photography it means you are not the target audience for this camera, I fear Your joking right? That is an utterly ludicrous thing to say considering how many cameras...including Leica, have "Bulb" settings. I get why you defend the brand, but this is verging on corporate hubris.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted May 6, 2013 Share #13 Posted May 6, 2013 yeah- I always find that argument a little unsettling. Everything else about the camera is very much for for me: I have a large collection of Leica M glass- I am a Leica rangefinder fan and an M9/M8 owner. I have enjoyed long exposures over one minute with both cameras. I would enjoy to continue do so with the new camera and was looking forward to being able to use the higher ISO settings. It seems I can't: my gripe is legitimate I would say. If I bought the MM and then complained that I wanted to shoot colour I would accept your argument more readily... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 6, 2013 Share #14 Posted May 6, 2013 Your joking right? That is an utterly ludicrous thing to say considering how many cameras...including Leica, have "Bulb" settings. I get why you defend the brand, but this is verging on corporate hubris.... I don't get it, so why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2013 Share #15 Posted May 6, 2013 Your joking right? That is an utterly ludicrous thing to say considering how many cameras...including Leica, have "Bulb" settings. I get why you defend the brand, but this is verging on corporate hubris.... Sorry - I find this attitude rather strange - a maker decides to design a product with certain limitations - any industrial product has limitations. And just because it does not suit your particular needs it is " corporate hubris" "ludicrous" etc. If a product does not meet your needs that is a basis for a non-buying decision. Not for being mortally offended. It only means it was not designed for users that need that particular feature. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2013 Share #16 Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) I don't get it, so why? Nor do I get it, as I am defending nobody... I am only saying that this omission cannot be anything but intentional. This camera has been in development for more than four years - every single detail has been discussed in extenso. Do you really think that at one point the Chief Gnome - the one with the tallest hat and the moth-eaten grey beard- has said: "You know what, let's limit this to sixty seconds just to piss off some of our customers" and all the other Gnomes went: "Harf harf harf, let's do it..."? Edited May 6, 2013 by jaapv 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 6, 2013 Share #17 Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) I've been thinking - could it be that the M has a hidden "T" setting just like the M8 and M9? Could any M owner try the following - Set self-timer to "0" (not really needed but easier) Set the camera to Selftimer and "B" Hit the shutter release. The shutter will stay open until the release is operated a second time without time limit - at least not one I've been able to determine. Edited May 6, 2013 by jaapv Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted May 6, 2013 Share #18 Posted May 6, 2013 I don't get it, so why? It's often a controversial brand, has been for a long time due to things like sticking to traditions that some may not understand and more recently, mind blowing price increases. Leica is Leica, among others, I understand why he defends it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted May 6, 2013 Share #19 Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) If a product does not meet your needs that is a basis for a non-buying decision. This statement makes more sense, saying someone is not the camera's intended target audience just based on a smaller range of operable shutter speeds....doesn't. For example, the M has shutter speeds that take it to 8 seconds on the dial, most electronic shutters have some form of extended shutter speed settings beyond one second. To be clear, there have been quite a few cameras out there with electronic shutters that have had limits on the total time one can leave the shutter open using the bulb setting, my Xpan is limited to about 6 minutes I think. So with the new M, we go from the M9 at 4 minutes to as low as just above the next lowest setting on the shutter speed dial, 8 seconds at ISO 1,600 to just 3 stops higher than that at 60 seconds. This is not really a bulb setting as much as it is an extended set of long shutter speeds limited to 60 seconds that is flexible, not limited to full stops. But it *is* a limit of what is truly a now basic feature on most high end / pro caliber electronic shutter cameras that 99% of cameras owners and photographers have come to expect if not rely on to impart more ability and ultimately creativity into their final images. If Leica could have made it at least as long as the other digi-M's in time for this model's release, they would have as I too am sure they did not intentionally hobble it. But they did not, so now the M's target audience has changed? I don't think so Jaapv and I think to say so is outright silly. Having bulb being replaced by a "flex" long shutter speed would not stop me personally from buying the camera, but if I were traveling with just an M kit as many Leica fans proudly claim to do and needed longer than 60 seconds to get the shot of a lifetime, I would surely be annoyed as heck by this limitation at that particular time. Might be time to lose the whole "Target audience" thing, it is starting to be used out of context if not as a crutch, with all due respect of course. Edited May 6, 2013 by KM-25 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgm Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share #20 Posted May 6, 2013 In a nutshell: Higher ISO setting —> more noise; long exposure time —> more noise; high ISO and long exposure time —> bad idea. And Leica isn’t the only vendor limiting bulb mode based on the ISO setting; Pentax and Sigma come to mind and there may be others. Is that really such simple? I think that there are different sources of noise. With incrasing exposure time the photon noise decreases, or to be correct, the signal to noise ratio is getting better, that's why we need long exposure time. Further, the noise does not increase with ISO setting, it just becomes more visible. Why not letting the customer deceide whether he is happy with the noise level? 8 sec at 1600 ISO is really short, compared what for example Canon offers. Then coming back to my original question is there a work around, for example by using the exposure correction? How likely is that Leica will offer a new firmware giving the customer more freedom? Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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