Rick Posted March 29, 2013 Share #41 Posted March 29, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) They listened to many user's criticicism of their manuals. The M9-manual says, that you can't use Auto-Iso with manual exposure - which was wrong. Now the manual of the new M says the same - which is right. I understand what you are saying. Leica, fixed the error in the manual by changing the camera operation in the M to match the manual. That is so perverse it is funny! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 29, 2013 Posted March 29, 2013 Hi Rick, Take a look here M Firmware/Hardware Improvements Thread. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted March 29, 2013 Share #42 Posted March 29, 2013 On the other hand, it's quite possible that the people who programmed the M relied on the information in the M9s manual and thus implemented what was written instead of what the M9 does. Either way, it's a bit confusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 29, 2013 Share #43 Posted March 29, 2013 No! Please tell us it's not true... You really think it's possible they used the manual for programming the software of the new M??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 29, 2013 Share #44 Posted March 29, 2013 Call me old fashioned but I believe (unlike Leica apparently) that shooting in Manual requires the setting of Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO. AutoISO, hence the term AUTO, is not part of the deal. Anyone wanting to shoot their M240 in Manual should be smart enough to set these three parameters. Anyone setting Aperture, Shutter Speed and AutoISO should expect the camera to select an ISO speed that will render an acceptable exposure (or come as close as possible trying). Too bad this isn't the way it works now. When I discovered this on my M240 I actually went to the Owner's Manual. What a waste of time that was. Amen to that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted March 29, 2013 Share #45 Posted March 29, 2013 No! Please tell us it's not true... You really think it's possible they used the manual for programming the software of the new M??? I do. I've seen worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 29, 2013 Share #46 Posted March 29, 2013 They listened to many user's criticicism of their manuals. Don't get me started on the Manuals. Just take a look at the INDEX English pages 248-249. I have never seen an Index in such a shambles, other than the M9 and MM. If you have a line item with sub items at least indent the sub-item lines below the Main item line instead of running everything together like a 3rd grader might do from not knowing any better. Then let's not get into the page correctness. Example-- Interchangeable lenses ISO sensitivity Lenses, Leica M Attaching and removing--should be indented Design-should be indented Use of older lenses-should be indented Linear flash (HSS), etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 29, 2013 Share #47 Posted March 29, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I understand what you are saying. Leica, fixed the error in the manual by changing the camera operation in the M to match the manual. That is so perverse it is funny! This so funny it's perverse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 29, 2013 Share #48 Posted March 29, 2013 You really think it's possible they used the manual for programming the software of the new M??? Not necessarily the manual but there must be some specification of what should be implemented in the firmware. The manual might reflect what should have been (rather than was has been) implemented. The firmware of the new M and that of the M9 was written by different developers for a completely different hardware, so it wasn’t a case of taking existing firmware and adapting it to a new camera. It could be that some Jenoptik developer didn’t read the fine print (or chose to ignore it) and implemented auto ISO in manual mode anyway, and only the firmware for the new M now eventually conforms to the specification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted March 29, 2013 Share #49 Posted March 29, 2013 More likely that Leica got the M9 Manual incorrect. In fact the Manual is incorrect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted March 30, 2013 Share #50 Posted March 30, 2013 It is a matter of taste and effectivity. When I turn to manual shutter speed I expect a full manual camera, whereover I have the full contro, especially full control over the (under- and over-) exposure. I do not want to make a further step and turn of Auto Iso. It is similar to exposure correction(+/-). It should automaticly turn of, when going to manual speed, though it does not at the M9. Elmar If you expect a full manual camera when you dial in a shutter speed then don't use AutoISO, use a fixed ISO. The term "Auto" should be your first clue that this isn't "full manual". It's up to you as to whether or not a "further step" is necessary, by your choice of using a fixed ISO or AutoISO. I cannot believe Leica was ever persuaded that this was a smart way to program the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted March 30, 2013 Share #51 Posted March 30, 2013 In the next M I would like to see the viewfinder frames projected from an LCD. One frame at a time for coded lenses. Continuous frames all around. And maybe a bit more pronounced. Of course once we have a full sized LCD to project from, there is no end of user select-able information that we might wish to include. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 30, 2013 Share #52 Posted March 30, 2013 If you expect a full manual camera when you dial in a shutter speed then don't use AutoISO, use a fixed ISO. The term "Auto" should be your first clue that this isn't "full manual". It's up to you as to whether or not a "further step" is necessary, by your choice of using a fixed ISO or AutoISO. I cannot believe Leica was ever persuaded that this was a smart way to program the camera. Sorry, but I think You do not understand my point. Elmar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted March 30, 2013 Share #53 Posted March 30, 2013 Sorry, but I think You do not understand my point. Elmar I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. You want the shutter dial to do two things, set a manual speed and disable AutoISO. I only want the shutter dial to set a shutter speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 4, 2013 Share #54 Posted April 4, 2013 I think this is the correct thread to post this. I would like to see a different version of the Image Shuttle software, that we will get with the MF Grips, when they arrive. At the moment this is Windows/Mac only software and runs on a full computer. I have noted that other manufacturers who offer tethering software are transitioning to Apps to run on tablets in place of full computer software. Now that you can get very neat clips to hold either an iPad or iPad Mini on a tripod, this makes tethering out of the studio, a whole lot easier. Apart from anything else, the battery life of tablets is considerably better than most laptops. Tethering to a laptop out in the field is a nightmare, as I remember from doing some time lapse imagery on my Digilux 2. I have just bought a Hartblei Super Rotator tilt/shift lens in R mount to use on my M240. For those times, where I want my point of principal focus to be somewhere other than the central zoom rectangle, tablet tethering showing the live view picture, would be a huge improvement on trial and error focusing. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarosuav Posted April 4, 2013 Share #55 Posted April 4, 2013 I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. You want the shutter dial to do two things, set a manual speed and disable AutoISO. I only want the shutter dial to set a shutter speed. I totally agree with Stephen's point - if you select Auto ISO it should keep adjusting automatically even if you select a fixed shutter speed. That's what Auto ISO is for. While they're at it, we should also be able to use exposure compensation in that mode - it would affect the ISO value since aperture and shutter speed would be fixed. If one wants full manual mode, it should require manually selecting an ISO value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarosuav Posted April 4, 2013 Share #56 Posted April 4, 2013 I believe Leica has made the exposure compensation adjustment (hold front button down while at the same time turning thumb wheel) difficult to accidentally activate, but I wish this was an option. It's a stiff button, and not easy to adjust. Considering that the thumbwheel has no function without a button press (MENU, SET, FOCUS PEAKING HOLD, FOCUS PEAKING BRIEF PRESS) I think it could be better used for normal shooting. What I would like is a menu option for: Thumbwheel Normal State: Exp. Comp / ISO Adjust / None I second that. The way Exposure Comp is currently implemented makes it next to impossible to adjust it on the fly... There should be an option to have the thumbwheel adjust Exposure Comp without holding down the front button which is very hard to press. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted April 4, 2013 Share #57 Posted April 4, 2013 I totally agree with Stephen's point - if you select Auto ISO it should keep adjusting automatically even if you select a fixed shutter speed. That's what Auto ISO is for. That’s the crucial question, isn’t it? Some people would argue that the raison d’être of Auto ISO is that it allows automatic exposure to select a sufficiently fast shutter speed to prevent motion blur. From that position one would argue that Auto ISO has no function in manual exposure mode. While they're at it, we should also be able to use exposure compensation in that mode - it would affect the ISO value since aperture and shutter speed would be fixed. Again, some people have different ideas. With a Pentax DSLR, for example, you can use exposure compensation in manual mode. It won’t change the exposure, though, rather it shifts the exposure value regarded as a correct exposure (and indicated as such in the viewfinder). This approach is neither more nor less logical than the idea that exposure compensation should influence the ISO setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted April 4, 2013 Share #58 Posted April 4, 2013 Hey the Auto Iso with Manual shutter speed is a really important issue. The way it worked with the M9 satisfied lots of people . . . . who didn't complain. It also irritated some people (Elmar) who DID complain. So, Leica listened to the complainers and changed it, so that it picked the last used ISO. Pentax have a whole mode called TAV, which allows you to set an Aperture and Shutter speed and allow the camera to correct the exposure using the ISO. This is valuable in lots of circumstances when the light is changing fast, but when you really need to control the shutter speed (sport, concerts, shooting from a moving vehicle). It was useful in the M9, but it would be a whole lot MORE useful in the M, where high ISO is so much less of a penalty. There shouldn't be a problem - there should be an option in the Auto ISO setup saying: Use Auto ISO with a Manual Shutter Speed . . . On/Off Then everyone can be happy - it's not much of an added complication. There are arguments for either situation - but they're all valid. Let's Have The Option! All the best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted April 5, 2013 Share #59 Posted April 5, 2013 Pentax have a whole mode called TAV, which allows you to set an Aperture and Shutter speed and allow the camera to correct the exposure using the ISO. Jono, Agree, but I guess Leica would not be interested in following Pentax's approach - a very comprehesive human-machine interface. By the way, I've tested M240 here and re-confirm my order. Just cannot figure out why the price is eqivalent to US$ 86,777 in Leica Store rather than US$ 6,950 in B&H. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpwhite Posted April 5, 2013 Share #60 Posted April 5, 2013 I second that. The way Exposure Comp is currently implemented makes it next to impossible to adjust it on the fly... There should be an option to have the thumbwheel adjust Exposure Comp without holding down the front button which is very hard to press. YES! I agree... I had hoped the exposure compensation step would be really easy, but it isn't. So it is back to 1/2-stop manual brackets by reaching up to the shutter speed dial, which is a shame given the chance to have quick 1/3-stop adjustments as you shoot. Perhaps we will have to start gluing little extenders onto the front button , or maybe I can have my right middle finger reconfigured I am still struggling with the wonky WB of the M. I have the impression from my first shots that the illusion of depth is rendered much better with the M than my M9, but it is hard to compare images between the two bodies given the gross differences in their color profiles. I hope Leica is trying to improve the M color profile and releases 1.10.3 for this very soon! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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