To Buy M9, M240 after IIIc and M6???? Sadly...

[david strachan]

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After so much using my gorgeous old IIIc and my lovely M6...absolutely reliable and exact mechanisms...60 years old and 16 years resp, I was looking to get a full frame digital Leica. I love Leica, it's romantic history, superb build systems, using the Visoflex II and it's magic and the superb Bellows II...always so finely engineered and absolutely reliable...and forever. The delicious old lenses.

 

But reading of the banding issues, cracked screens, poor iso (M9), dirty sensors from the factory, stripped screw heads, sometimes many returns to factory for repairs, There seems a lot of problems. I may have to wait for Sony to bring out such a camera.. Hopefully soon. An M240 would be nice....but I was so turned off by the "damaged screw story" on the M240. I’m wondering if the add-ons for the M240 make the whole thing too over-engineered? And heavily weighted to electronics.?

 

What a pity I think I'll wait now. No FF unfortunately.

So I’ve ordered a 4/3’s Panasonic GX1. I’ll have to go that way to use all my legacy lenses on digi. I’m just disappointed…that’s all.

 

Stick to film, so I can use my Leicas, and only use half the optics potential on a micro system…. I’ll have to be patient for another year.

 

Cheers David S

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[TomB_tx]

Remember that the internet attracts complaints, while people happy with products seldom post.I also had long history (to the mid-60s) with Leica, and the M6 was the last I bought until hearing about the M9 after it came out. Since I never went digital before, I certainly can't complain about the M9 ISO - as I was used to film at 25 to 400, and sometimes 1200 pushed. I was amazed at the M9 low light capability. I have also had zero problems with mine in close to 3 years, except for having to clean the sensor a couple times. I often take the M9 and M6 as companion bodies, use them exactly the same with the same lenses - fully manual metering, identical light meter use. There's no other digital that lets me do that. If mine got destroyed I'd likely go for the M-E instead of the M, as I'm content with the M9 capabilities.

I have no doubt the Panasonic is a nice camera; I just don't adapt to the operation of other digitals.

[iedei]

Remember that the internet attracts complaints, while people happy with products seldom post.I also had long history (to the mid-60s) with Leica, and the M6 was the last I bought until hearing about the M9 after it came out. Since I never went digital before, I certainly can't complain about the M9 ISO - as I was used to film at 25 to 400, and sometimes 1200 pushed. I was amazed at the M9 low light capability. I have also had zero problems with mine in close to 3 years, except for having to clean the sensor a couple times. I often take the M9 and M6 as companion bodies, use them exactly the same with the same lenses - fully manual metering, identical light meter use. There's no other digital that lets me do that. If mine got destroyed I'd likely go for the M-E instead of the M, as I'm content with the M9 capabilities.

I have no doubt the Panasonic is a nice camera; I just don't adapt to the operation of other digitals.

 

just spend the money and get a pre-owned M9. you won't be disappointed. don't be too paranoid about the 'issues'....most cameras don't have issues. I absolutely LOVE my M8, although i was nervous before buying it. Digital Ms are amazing cameras......i still love my M5, but honestly the M8 has already easily paid its value to me from the great photos it has produced and i'm sure an M9 would do the same for you.

[david strachan]

Tom (ed and Syed)

You make good points. We've been spoiled with digital...the ease of metering, light balance and a stop or two extra iso.

Yes, I know there are a lot of very happy owners out there. I'm sure I'll be one soooner than I intimated I love the system, and I trust Leica, so it's just a matter of time. Thanks for the answer(s). (I'm thinking an M9)

 

cheers Dave S

[kdriceman]

There are many, many more success stories with the M9 than there are horror stories. For example, I have had my M9 for 2 years and have shot over 12,000 images with it. Not a single issue except for an occasional sensor cleaning... As for high ISO performance, I would like it to be better of course, but I have had many usable shots at 2500 and what I get at ISO 2500 is always better than I was ever able to get using Delta 3200. It has been an absolute joy to use the M9 and the image quality at ISO 160 - 800 exceeds that of any DSLR i have used (which includes the Canon 1Dx and the 5DIII). I don't know what the M will be like yet, but I have no doubt it will be a great camera also.

[MarkP]

Hi David,

 

It's like the evening news. Bad news always gets more coverage than good news. Everyone wants to have a whinge!

 

Are the Leica digital cameras perfect? Of course not, but:

 

1. High ISO? How often do you use film with an ISO greater than 400? If rarely then high-ISO noise & banding is a trivial issue.

 

2. Cracked sensors? Unless I'm mistaken, they were an early problem from a faulty batch. I'm unaware of it being a significant issue in recent years.

 

3. One damaged screw? So what.

 

3. Electronics dependence? Any new camera except an MP is dependent on electronics.

Will the electronic Leica's survive as long as your mechanical film-Ms. Of course not as cameras are now computers not mechanical treasures such as yours.

 

3. If you think the M240 is over-engineered for your requirements than pick up an M9 or equivalent. I'd be surprised if you would be disappointed. I think you may be far more disappointed with a compact digital without an optical VF or lens interchangeability.

 

I agree with the posts above. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

PLEASE CANCEL THE PANASONIC ORDER and just go out and buy an M9(±P), ME or M240. A Monochrom would be an alternative suggestion if you only shoot B&W.

 

Then you can enjoy using all of your Leica lenses. Be aware that processing digital files requires a worthwhile but new skillset with a very steep learning curve.

 

Regards from Sydney,

Mark

[david strachan]

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Riceman and Mark

You both make very powerful arguments with all points.

I didn't realize the iso against the Canon.

 

It looks definitely go for the M9. I've ordered a Panasonic GX1 in the mean time...I just can't wait to try all my legacies with something digital...got the body only for $349 new delivered free. It's not much to get into the water...in the mean time the hunt is on...for an M9.

 

Thank you so much everyone for your sage advice. I was worried about being too negative when I posted this, but now feel much enthused toward the future. Yes, you have given me direction.

 

All the best and again thanks all, Cheers Dave S

[farnz]

Dave,

 

I'll add my voice to the others here in respect of bad news about Leica being reported far more often than good news. I've had Leica digital M's since 2007 with no problems other than a vf recalibration after I dropped the camera onto concrete. (Ouch!)

 

Regarding ISO performance, I regularly use my M9-P at ISO 1000 for evening and night shooting and Noise Reduction in Photoshop cleans it up very well. I recently had the good fortune to take a few shots with the M and using it at night at ISO 3200 produced visibly considerably less noise than my M9-P at ISO 1000. Delta 3200 just cannot be compared with the M's ISO 3200 performance, which resembled roughly ISO 200 on film from memory.

 

I hope you're not convinced by the masses of misinformation on the web.

 

Pete.

[Peter H]

I agree with the majority here.

 

David, I think its a great shame that a few problems may prevent you from experiencing the genuine joy that an M9 is capable of delivering.

 

Be brave, and enjoy!

[wattsy]

I love the system, and I trust Leica, so it's just a matter of time. Thanks for the answer(s). (I'm thinking an M9)

 

There are some good deals around on used M9 bodies and, if you are concerned about reliability, there is always the option of buying an extra year's warranty for €290 (provided, of course, that the used camera still has some warranty remaining).

 

I agree with the consensus that you shouldn't let the problems reported here put you off buying a digital Leica. I have experienced one or two problems myself – I had an original recall M8 and the sensor of my M9P (bought in 2012) cracked a month ago (and is awaiting repair in Solms who have run out of spares:mad:) – but I enjoy using them tremendously and I wouldn't swap my M system cameras for anything else.

[david strachan]

Pete, Peter and Ian

Thank you for your excellent arguments; and your very good advice.

 

After a good night's sleep....

love my film Leicas and the Visoflex doing macros. And just general photography with my Summicron (1952). So I may go for the full kit...M240..it should be better for macro with focus peaking, and using an EVF is definitely easier for macro (does the M240 have zoom in view in the EVF?...I'll check it out).This will take me 6 months to attain by way of my budget and selling a Leica M5 I have. Other sales from my camera collection will have to go too, sadly, very sadly. Nothing reeeally expensive to sell. But cherished through 25 years of buying selling swapping around the world.

 

I'd never dreamed of having a Leica. Just always put it out of my mind. Then when I stopped yachts and sailing...suddenly the thoughts of Leica surfaced. In 8 months have had numerous Barnacks and lenses..settling on my IIIc (conv IIIf) and my M6...from markets around the world. I've run so much film and developed my FP4 in a my new cold water technique (during winter in Adelaide 13 deg C). I have Leica paraphanalia, books, catalogues and do-dads. Dennis Laney's amazing "Leica Collectors Guide; 2nd Ed) is my bible.

 

Just one question fellas...

I really am hooked for life???

 

cheers Dave S

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[colonel]

 

There seems a lot of problems. I may have to wait for Sony to bring out such a camera.. Hopefully soon. An M240 would be nice....but I was so turned off by the "damaged screw story" on the M240. I’m wondering if the add-ons for the M240 make the whole thing too over-engineered? And heavily weighted to electronics.?

 

So I’ve ordered a 4/3’s Panasonic GX1. I’ll have to go that way to use all my legacy lenses on digi. I’m just disappointed…that’s all.

 

Stick to film, so I can use my Leicas, and only use half the optics potential on a micro system…. I’ll have to be patient for another year.

 

Cheers David S

 

Leica's are mostly very reliable, as mentioned above, only the disgruntled and fanboys generally post. Others are just taking photos.

 

The GX1 is a nice camera for someone used to a point and shoot but I found the sensor very disappointing, especially for dynamic range and noise.

 

For running Leica lenses on APS-C sensors, based on what I have used and everything I have read, the Sony Nex-6 and Ricoh GXR are the best quality for M lenses. 4/3s are not bad (I have an OM-D) but the APS-C ones are better. I thought the Fuji would be a good mount but I hear there are fringing problems with M lenses.

 

Of course if 35mm is your favourite then the Sony RX1 is probably one of the best FF cameras money can buy, but you loose all that fiddling for buying and trying new lenses

 

A second hand M9 or ME is a great camera if you are mostly a low ISO shooter.

 

The M240 is a superb camera if you want to continue with Leica and you can afford it. You won't be disappointed.

[farnz]

...

Just one question fellas...

I really am hooked for life???

Nice rigs, Dave. Sorry to be the one to have to tell you but normally it is incurable. (Although exceedingly pleasant!)

 

Pete.

[david strachan]

Leica's are mostly very reliable, as mentioned above, only the disgruntled and fanboys generally post. Others are just taking photos.

 

The GX1 is a nice camera for someone used to a point and shoot but I found the sensor very disappointing, especially for dynamic range and noise.

 

For running Leica lenses on APS-C sensors, based on what I have used and everything I have read, the Sony Nex-6 and Ricoh GXR are the best quality for M lenses. 4/3s are not bad (I have an OM-D) but the APS-C ones are better. I thought the Fuji would be a good mount but I hear there are fringing problems with M lenses.

 

Of course if 35mm is your favourite then the Sony RX1 is probably one of the best FF cameras money can buy, but you loose all that fiddling for buying and trying new lenses

 

A second hand M9 or ME is a great camera if you are mostly a low ISO shooter.

 

The M240 is a superb camera if you want to continue with Leica and you can afford it. You won't be disappointed.

 

Hi Colonel

The cheap short stop Panasonic GX1 will have to do until I go FF. The Sony and the Ricoh look much better with their bigger sensors, but a lot more expensive.

I am really waiting for FF digital to use the full potential of all my lenses...so in the mean time a tantalising taste with the small sensor camera.

 

I've ordered a Leica M mount adapter so I can use all my screw lenses, inc enlarger lenses and large format and all my Nikon, Pentax and other lenses. I already own a lot of adapters, and can already put all lenses on my Leica M6 and Canon 60D and a lot on my IIIc. I'll be able to use the Bellows II too. ...I'll have plenty to play with for a few months while I save for an M9 or an M240.

 

Thanks for the very considered response and thinking Colonel.

 

Cheers Dave S

[Jeff S]

You don't necessarily need an M9 or new M, Dave. I shot with film Ms for decades, but gave up my darkrooms and fully transitioned to digital 4 years ago. I've owned 2 M8.2s over that time (the second one used, mint, picked up 2 years ago), and have had zero problems with either.

 

And I bet if you saw my prints, you would have zero clue as to whether I used an M8.2 or M9 (or probably even some other camera). There is so much one can do these days with wonderful papers, inks, printers, profiles, software, etc. The camera is but one link, and I think you'd find that even the M8 would offer you a close experience to your film Ms.

 

And before you raise concerns about either the crop factor or the use of UV/IR filters, neither of these issues has troubled me in the least. One gets used to the FOV quickly (especially if you've shot various formats already), and the filters actually do a better job than the internal filtration of the M9 for b/w work. Some M9 users have realized this and use the same filters on their cameras as well.

 

Having said that, I still will test the new M, as it incorporates several aspects I've wanted, including weather sealing, quieter shutter (even more film like), faster processing and longer battery life, better focusing for use with long lenses, and it retains the 2m frame lines I enjoy with my M8.2s. I frankly don't care much about super high ISOs; ASA 400 was fine for ages for me. In any case, I won't make a decision until I field test by making prints of my own pics.

 

I encourage you to rent an M8.2 (or M8/upgraded M8), or try to get a loaner from a reputable dealer, and see how it meets your own needs and preferences. Make your own assessment before you lust after, or spend, more than you need.

 

Jeff

[tobey bilek]

Pete, Peter and Ian

Thank you for your excellent arguments; and your very good advice.

 

After a good night's sleep....

love my film Leicas and the Visoflex doing macros. And just general photography with my Summicron (1952). So I may go for the full kit...M240..it should be better for macro with focus peaking, and using an EVF is definitely easier for macro (does the M240 have zoom in view in the EVF?...I'll check it out).This will take me 6 months to attain by way of my budget and selling a Leica M5 I have. Other sales from my camera collection will have to go too, sadly, very sadly. Nothing reeeally expensive to sell. But cherished through 25 years of buying selling swapping around the world.

 

I'd never dreamed of having a Leica. Just always put it out of my mind. Then when I stopped yachts and sailing...suddenly the thoughts of Leica surfaced. In 8 months have had numerous Barnacks and lenses..settling on my IIIc (conv IIIf) and my M6...from markets around the world. I've run so much film and developed my FP4 in a my new cold water technique (during winter in Adelaide 13 deg C). I have Leica paraphanalia, books, catalogues and do-dads. Dennis Laney's amazing "Leica Collectors Guide; 2nd Ed) is my bible.

 

Just one question fellas...

I really am hooked for life???

 

cheers Dave S

 

Hooked for life?. No there is a twelve step program that is expensive and no buddy to call when things get hard.

 

I got thru step one a few years back, then got an M8.

[NZDavid]

I know what you mean. Film Leicas are perfect for their purpose. Digital Leicas not quite yet, but close. Film technology is mature. Digital technology has advanced phenomenally but is still evolving. Too often, the digital design emphasis (and this applies to all computer products) is on more and more features and apps, seldom on reliability or even usability.

 

However, I reckon Leica is to be congratulated for sticking to its minimalist, quality philosophy. Not being a manufacturer of digital componentry like sensors and software, Leica has been subject to the foibles of products made by other companies. Yes, some things may go haywire from time to time (I lost some pics because of an SD card misbehaving) but overall the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, certainly for pro use.

 

I still wish they had been able to produce a camera body that you could keep forever and upgrade the changing digital bits only when necessary. A bit like Ricoh's GXR with its interchangeable sensors and lens mounts.

[tobey bilek]

There are always some issues with mass produced products. The cracked sensors are behind us.

 

Well sometimes one has to return a new car for warrantee work. Stuff happens.

[david strachan]

Well, I'm too impatient to wait for full frame. Traded a camera to get...

 

So a couple of weeks ago purchased a used M8 with 4,000 clicks...right here in Adelaide, so I got to have a good look at it first. Included a UVaIR filter, and I'm having soooo much fun. It's always a learning curve with new systems, and of course the rewards are proportional to the effort.

 

Using my Summicron (collapsible c. 1952) and did a large B&W print on an Epson R3000...absolutely fabulous.

 

Thanks all for your help, once again.

 

cheers Dave S :)

 

PS I must be one of the very few who think the M8 shutter sound is rather nice?

Still nothing fondles like my IIIc

[MarkP]

 

Using my Summicron (collapsible c. 1952) and did a large B&W print on an Epson R3000...absolutely fabulous.

 

Please post it here for us to enjoy also.

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Hallo,

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