New lenses for the M?

[hankg]

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1. A reasonably priced rangefinder coupled 16/4.5 -even 16/5.6 would be OK if it's really world shaking quality at a lower price point.

 

2. A 24 or 28/1.4 Digitar. Just this one reduced format fast compact lens especially optimized for the M8. A nontraditional RF digital friendly optical design for less vignetting with IR filter. Lower macro contrast for more dynamic range. Stellar flair control and resolving power. Built in IR cut filter or IR cut coating on front element. 1.33 is likely to be with us for a while if the digital M is going to remain compatible with all the past Leica wide-angles so this lens should have a long useful life. Leica should absolutely have one no compromise lens fine-tuned to get the absolute max from the M8 in the M's most used form. Since digital and film have differing requirements I should think there is room for one made for digital lens.

 

3. Goggles as an option for the 135 and maybe 90.

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[carstenw]

I'll stick with my 15/4 or 18/4 prediction, although given the Wide Tri-Elmar, perhaps a 15/2.8 is more likely. That would also give Zeiss some competition where they currently don't have any. I also still think that Leica might try to stop the gap creating by the 35 Lux Asph becoming a 50mm equivalent lens, possibly with a 28/1.4 or 24/2, perhaps crop.

[ChrisC]

Guy ....... he collects lenses like Imelda Marcos collected shoes .........

 

I'll go with the mood for a 16mm f4 [or even slower if need be], but with a properly designed '21' finder with built in diopter correction and spirit level - like Mamiya make.

 

What was that other thing? Oh yes; Imelda Mancuso? Whilst being an exotic name, I'd have thought that around Guy's area that is fighting talk.

 

Just as well he didn't notice eh?

 

....................Chris

[Peter Branch]

I believe the key question is whether or not any new lenses will be designed to cover the full 36 X 24 mm format or just the 27 X 18 mm of the digital sensor. There is no realistic possibility in the foreseeable future that “M” type lenses could be used on a full frame sensor; the technology is not there and the offset micro lens approach, very good though it is, has been pushed to the limit. It is also abundantly clear that with very few specialised exceptions we don’t actually need more pixels and if we do then suitable equipment is already available though I accept that some of it is very expensive.

 

I guess that sales of “M” film cameras will be little more than 5% of Leica’s “M” business in the very near future, if we are not already at that point. The future is digital and if someone has a real need to use increasingly difficult to source film then there are more than enough M3 > M7 cameras already out there.

 

If Leica accepts this situation after, of course, allowing time for the “Loyal Customer Base” to catch up and accept the reality of digital, then all sorts of possibilities open up - 24mm f/2 etc. It would also make it possible to exploit the performance gain available from having lenses of similar physical size but covering a smaller image circle.

 

My vote remains for a top quality, distortion free, IR absorbing, 18mm f/2.8 (or f/3.4). I really liked the 24mm lens on film and miss it. If it only works of 27 X 18 mm then that does not worry me in the slightest. I accept that many people would like something even wider but that has never been my personal need.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I'll go with the mood for a 16mm f4 [or even slower if need be], but with a properly designed '21' finder with built in diopter correction and spirit level - like Mamiya make.

 

What was that other thing? Oh yes; Imelda Mancuso? Whilst being an exotic name, I'd have thought that around Guy's area that is fighting talk.

 

Just as well he didn't notice eh?

 

....................Chris

 

 

Well here in Arizona they still carry 6 guns. Of course they walk around in horse shit all day too but i am much more civialized i just shovel the dogs do and carry a switch blade. Something things growing up in New Jersey you just can't leave behind .ROTFLMAO

[lars_bergquist]

-----What was that other thing? Oh yes; Imelda Mancuso? Whilst being an exotic name, I'd have thought that around Guy's area that is fighting talk.

 

Just as well he didn't notice eh?

 

....................Chris

 

He did notice. I have the highest regard for Guy, who has been extremely helpful to us all. I did however reckon that he could take some friendly ribbing, and he did.

 

The old man …

[lars_bergquist]

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A note on ‘Digitar’ lenses. I do not think Leica will offer any such thing as long as they make film M cameras – or even longer. If however the M8 continues the howling success it has been to date, and sets some kind of new standard, then I think it is a forgeone conclusion that someone will. Maybe Zeiss will jump on the digital bandwagon and come out with a digital RF camera. I would also be willing to bet on Cosina. Even on th camera body side. Qui vivra verra.

 

The old man from the Age of Bare Bones (gelatin) Photography

[carstenw]

Zeiss unfortunately has never been terribly successful with their cameras. The Contax cameras were really nice, but they never seemed to catch the buyers' mood. The 645 was brilliant, and if they still made it and I ever needed medium format, that is the one I would want to buy. Anyway, I think it would take a lot to make them leave their film-rangefinder niche-within-a-niche. I think they simply don't have the expertise in-house any more, and they would have to go through the same teething pains as Leica with the M8. Companies like Kodak might not be willing to do as much for Zeiss as for Leica, with Leica's long-running reputation for simple but ingenious cameras, and best-of-breed lenses.

[Peter Branch]

A note on ‘Digitar’ lenses. I do not think Leica will offer any such thing as long as they make film M cameras – or even longer.......

 

I just can't accept that Leica will continue to introduce new lenses to cover the film format if they are only selling a handful of film "M" cameras a year - indeed rumour has it that film camera sales have already dried up completely.

 

Leica will sell the existing lenses, introduce new "MD" lenses and finally replace the existing lenses with "MD" versions - exploiting one of the few posibilities to further improve performance by keeping lenses the same physical size but reducing the image circle.

[Guest Olof]

I just can't accept that Leica will continue to introduce new lenses to cover the film format if they are only selling a handful of film "M" cameras a year - indeed rumour has it that film camera sales have already dried up completely.

 

Leica will sell the existing lenses, introduce new "MD" lenses and finally replace the existing lenses with "MD" versions - exploiting one of the few posibilities to further improve performance by keeping lenses the same physical size but reducing the image circle.

 

The existing lenses are very good an work perfekt with the M8, why should Leica develop "digital lenses" ? When the full format M camera comes, you can throw away all these "digital lenses". The investment are the lenses, not the camera body. And at the moment Leica sells also more and more analog M cameras.... so there is really no problem.

[stunsworth]

Peter, they may not be selling many film Ms at the moment, but there are a _lot_ of M2-7s out there. Far, far more than there are M8s. M8s out in the wild at the moment are in the low thousands, film Ms are what, 10s or 100s of thousands? If Leica want to sell new lenses to this huge market they need to keep them full frame. I can't see Leica abandoning all those potential sales for a long time.

[scott kirkpatrick]

A note on ‘Digitar’ lenses. I do not think Leica will offer any such thing as long as they make film M cameras – or even longer. If however the M8 continues the howling success it has been to date, and sets some kind of new standard, then I think it is a forgeone conclusion that someone will.

 

 

Actually, I believe Leica is already designing "Digitar"s and selling one of them today. Look at the MTFs for the 28/2.8 Elmarit. It is almost two different lenses. One set of impressive specs from radius 0 to 15 mm (the corner of the M8's sensor) and much looser, but still quite acceptable specs for the rest of the full film frame. And the payoff was a lens that is really distinctive -- smaller and manufacturable to Leica's standards for half the cost of its brethren.

 

Goggles work for wide angles as well as for teles. Why not a goggled 21 to map into the 28 framelines (which come up but are useless with that lens today)? And then while they are at it, a redesign of the 21, which currently costs a fortune and weighs a ton, into a modern "Digitar" configuration?

 

This is a personal view. Tele's don't really excite me as much as WA's, and small camera/lens combos are much more appealing than hulking Speed Graphics (or EOS1DIIIs's).

 

scott

[horosu]

I would love to see just one lens: 50/2 Summicron (current formulation) collapsible....Just dreaming

[Guest Olof]

Olof, the 90 mm f:2 ASPH does already exist. And Leica have done several design studies on the 50 mm Summicron and they have concluded that the improvement would not be in proportion to the investment, or to the selling price.

 

As for chrome lenses on the M8 there is a risk which is the same as with the original 1964 Leicaflex: chrome reflecting light into the external metering sensor. The chrome lenses were discontinued very quickly, so that they are now quite collectible.

 

The old man from the Age of Chromed Cameras

 

Lars, thank you i made a mistake. I thought about a 90mm 2.8 asph. , and i still love the M chromed lenses

[luigi bertolotti]

I'd like to see a very compact and collapsable 75/2.8, in black and chrome, of course, with a 39mm filter thread and detachable hood.

 

A speculation I did not think about... AGREE ! Good idea, I have always thought that on Leicas "Collapsible is nice" and 75 is a fine length for M8 and for film Leicas too (I have not 75, but use sometime my fine Hektor 73....)

[luigi bertolotti]

I'll stick with my 15/4 or 18/4 prediction, although given the Wide Tri-Elmar, perhaps a 15/2.8 is more likely. That would also give Zeiss some competition where they currently don't have any. I also still think that Leica might try to stop the gap creating by the 35 Lux Asph becoming a 50mm equivalent lens, possibly with a 28/1.4 or 24/2, perhaps crop.

 

Fine freewheel discussions... for me, in marketing problems the terms are:

 

1) WATE reaches 16 : a single focal lens MUST go further, say 15 or "14" (stupid length just to best CVoigt)

2) WATE is f 4, a single focal length IS BETTER to show something more

 

I bet for 15 f 3,5 or marketing oddity like "3,8",or "3,4" resembling the very appreciated 135

[Peter Branch]

There are several different arguments developing here:

 

When the full format M camera comes, you can throw away all these "digital lenses". OK if you believe that - fine. I don't believe there will be a full frame digital "M" in the foreseeable future.

 

Leica have a perfectly good range of existing lenses to sell to all those film users. The fact is that their number is diminishing fast by the day. Don’t be fooled by “film sales” data. Total film sales include those in developing economies and they are not using Leica cameras!

 

This is the Digital section and I’m interested in lenses for the M8. The film people,( I was one for over 40 years), can go whistle if they think they are going to get 24mm f/2 lenses – however there is every reason to believe that such a lens could be developed and sold economically for the M8 – provided it was not expected to cover the film format.

 

I agree about the 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit ASPH. It really is an “MD” lens with “acceptable” coverage of film. I bet the film people are not raving about its performance in the same way that the owners of M8s are.

[hankg]

The existing lenses are very good an work perfekt with the M8, why should Leica develop "digital lenses" ? When the full format M camera comes, you can throw away all these "digital lenses". The investment are the lenses, not the camera body. And at the moment Leica sells also more and more analog M cameras.... so there is really no problem.

 

For the most part true but film users have a f/1.4 35 and 50, and a f/2 28. Digital users do not and won't if the lens has to accommodate 24 x 36. If they did produce a 28/1.4 the size and price would be absurd unless it was built for the smaller format. I would not want to pay double and have a monster size so the lens can be used on film camera's I don't own or use.

 

I think that as much as possible the lens line should accomadate both formats. Right now it is heavily skewed to film because the digital RF is new. There is room however for one fast 'wide' (not really wide on the M8) to bring the M8 to parity with the film M's.

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[jaapv]

There is of course the Zeiss 2.8/15....

[hankg]

There is of course the Zeiss 2.8/15....

Not rangefinder coupled, monster sized and expensive. But it's the most used M focal lengths that I think are the big issue. For 50 you can use the 35/1.4 and on the long end there are a wealth of choices (50/1.0 or 1.4, 75/2 or 1.4, etc.,) that work equally well on film and digital.

 

But the focal lengths most associated with modern M documentary/street photography? The all important 21- 28 (28-38 on the M8) focal lengths are where film and digital really diverge in terms of needs and priorities. Cyan shift, speed, size and cost put the 2 formats at cross purposes at this end of the range.

 

If we have 2 generations of 1.33 M's the useful life for one or two 'digitars' would be easily 10 years or more when you include the used market. Leica has always been about no compromise quality so I don't think 'stealth' digital lenses that have stellar performance out to the edge of the digital format but drop off to mediocre at the edges of 24x36 are the way to go. Let's have one digitar at the 35 equivalent focal length, maybe 2 digitars if 28 sales/usage has been close to 35.

 

At the price of Leica digital and Leica glass why would anyone want to settle for less then the ideal solution, optimized for the format you are really using. Leica digital is not 24x36, why pretend that it is? Leica charges nose bleed prices for its lens line, why worry about the expense of adding a digital only lens to the line up? It would actually save you money, even if you own film cameras, as it would be cheaper to add a digital lens to your line up then pay an astronomical price for say a film compatible 28/1.4 that would live on your M8 while your M7 always had the 35/1.4 attached.

 

I think there are a lot of M8 buyers who like me are not from Leica's recent customer base. I came from medium format film and DSLR's. I am in love with the Leica M8 camera not the Leica mythology. So I don't have any emotional attachment to the brand or to any format. I'm just looking for a rig that works with the best price/performance ratio possible.