MM and Silver Efex pro question

[rickp13]

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looking at the adobe photoshop lists of supported cameras, i remember reading that the monochrom dng files are supported starting with CS6 and ACR 7. once that minimum is present, i'm hoping the nik plug-ins work as before (not grayed out). i haven't upgraded yet from CS5 to 6.

 

right/wrong??

[jaapv]

Wrong - the only issue that gets it greyed out is the type of file you are working in. Old versions of ACR may not recognize the DNG, though.

[jaapv]

I've only read half of this thread but here's my experience. It so happens that I already owned the Nik software package so I am not using the downloaded SEP2 version supplied through Leica. However, I'm presuming it's the same software as the version 2 I'm using.

 

I open Monochrom DNGs in Photoshop CS6,which first processes the DNGs in ACR 7.x. In ACR Gray Gamma 2.2, 16 bit is the profile. When looking at these grayscale photoshop files, both Color Efex Pro and Silver Efex Pro are grayed out. The mode must be switched to RGB to get those two filters working. This was not the case with SEP 1. I wrote to nik support to ask them about this and they confirmed that SEP and CEP both want to see RGB files. They also added some mumbo jumbo about how there is more information in an RGB file, as if that would give a better result.

 

I'm not at home but I'm wondering if developing the DNG into a tiff rather than a psd file

I don't think so, as the issue is the space you are working in and PSD or TIFF won't resolve that.

[Guest borge]

LR4.3, CS6, Latest SEP plug-in:

 

Open DNG from LR in PS (still opened as DNG in PS)

Open in SEP filter (still opened as DNG according to SEP)

Apply the SEP plugin as a layer (or painted layer mask)

I still havent saved a physical file.

Once I am done I save as a layered PSD in PS CS6 which is automatically stacked in LR4.3 with the original DNG.

I then export the PSD from within LR to a jpeg in the resolution that I want.

 

My point is: I haven't had to adjust any settings to be able to do this (no RGB conversion or nothing)...

 

"It just works"

[Guest WPalank]

Folks that are using ACR. If you are using LR, and exporting to CS as a DNG, no need to worry as LR is in the ProPhoto Color Space by definition.

OK back to ACR. If opening a MM DNG for the first time and not changing Preferences it defaults to Gamma 2.2. this does not mean it is the necessary space. Click that blue button (Mac here) at the bottom of the page and change the default to either Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB (my choice). Since there are no color channels you are restricted to what sliders you can use, many are greyed out.

 

I just saved out one image after moving sliders around with a Gamma Profile and the other with a ProPhoto Profile THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

 

Just change it now and be done with it. That way you can work in al the Nik Products for example without an issue. I go to Color Efex Pro 4 before SEP2.

 

If any of you have recently upgraded from CS5 to CS6 for example and have been working away. If you have in the past changed your Color Preferences from the default (sRGB) to Adobe or ProP, you may be shocked to learn, since your upgrade, you are working in sRGB again. For the damnedest reasons, the folks at Adobe have decided to reset all the preferences every-time you upgrade. And this goes way back.

[jaapv]

Good tip about resetting the format in ACR, William. Nobody ever notices the small blue print at the bottom.

The reason I start out with Gamma 2.2 is that I do not trust an RGB colour space to keep its channels 100% balanced when doing manipulations that change values. After all, in RGB the luminosity is linked to colour values.That way I am sure I have a 100% greyscale image. As soon as I want to go to SE or/and do toning I convert to RGB (which one is irrelevant as there is no gamut.) One needs to convert to RGB for printing anyway.

If I plan to switch back to grayscale after SE I will move using LAB as that does not introduce artifacts. SE does accept LAB.

[thighslapper]

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I'm a simple soul and I find it hard to follow all this .......

 

I assume it's got something to do with the odd behaviour I have noted in LR4.....

 

Why do the RGB % on the histogram bit change when you move over the image......???

 

.... and why do the B&W preset colour filters do something to the image when there is no colour info in the file ???? ...... despite the treatment panel being greyed out and the panel lower down stating 'monochrome image'.

 

and does all the convoluted fiddling about listed above in this thread make any practical difference to the final images ..... ???

[Guest WPalank]

 

I assume it's got something to do with the odd behaviour I have noted in LR4.....

 

Why do the RGB % on the histogram bit change when you move over the image......???

 

LR uses the Prophoto Color Space. Can't be changed while working WITHIN the Application.

Your color Space within Photoshop (you didn't say, but I am assuming) is a different Color Space. Especially if going from 16 bit Prophoto LR to sRGB in Photoshop.That is why the "fiddling" matters and the histogram changes.

 

.... and why do the B&W preset colour filters do something to the image when there is no colour info in the file ???? ...... despite the treatment panel being greyed out and the panel lower down stating 'monochrome image'.

Where are these presets? SEP2, Photoshop??? I am not able to get those to work within SEP2 and it makes no sense as to why. In Photoshop or LR I can get the Color filters to work . For the time being think of it as a yellow or whatever color film over the B&W image. If it is in SEP2, can you plese click on the different filters and tell me if it is the same change when you click on the Red or Green? Does it change when you use the Strength slider?

 

and does all the convoluted fiddling about listed above in this thread make any practical difference to the final images ..... ???

Yes.

[Guest WPalank]

To tell what bit depth and CS within CS6, I can look two places immediately on my screen (there are probably more).

First when I bring in the DNG in the UPPer Left portion of the image, it tells me the document name, magnification, what Layer I am currently in, and RGB/16 followed by an asterisk.

In the lower right of the image is some content. Click on the little white arrow and you get a menu. Select "Document Profile" and I get ProPhoto RGB (16bpc)

[jaapv]

I'm a simple soul and I find it hard to follow all this .......

 

I assume it's got something to do with the odd behaviour I have noted in LR4.....

 

Why do the RGB % on the histogram bit change when you move over the image......???

 

.... and why do the B&W preset colour filters do something to the image when there is no colour info in the file ???? ...... despite the treatment panel being greyed out and the panel lower down stating 'monochrome image'.

 

and does all the convoluted fiddling about listed above in this thread make any practical difference to the final images ..... ???

LR edits your file in Profoto RGB. In RGB luminance values are defined by the colour values; black, white and all grey values are created when the colour values in all three colour channels are the same.

But they are still RGB values and show up as such and will give you the RGB percentage.

If you apply toning you are deliberately unbalancing your colour channels.

 

The values for colour are manipulated mathematically, which means that they must be rounded off to whole values to create colour-density values, which may lead to slight discrepancies between the colour channels.

You may not see it on your monitor, but a grey value that should be for instance 135,135,135 ( a grayish gray) may be defined as something like134,137,135 after strong contrast shifts, reason for me to work in a grayscale space to avoid this, as it might show up in print as metamerism.

 

As Silver Efex is designed to convert colour images to greyscale, it is also designed to use RGB colour spaces, and not greyscale spaces. So you must convert to RGB to use it. And if you want to do some hefty postprocessing after using SE you might consider moving into a greyscale again, although you will have to reconvert to RGB for your printer.

All this converting may lead to artifacts so I use LAB. Converting to and from LAB introduces no artifacts.

 

LAB has a separate luminance (L) channel and diverts colour information (without luminance values) to the A and B channel, so it has not got the colour-luminance link RGB has. As an anecdote, in LAB you can create a non-existent colour like red without luminance.

 

 

It is irrelevant btw, which RGB space you use for a natively greyscale image, you are working on a linear graph from 0,0,0 to 256,256,256. On the other hand it is certainly relevant which one you are using when converting a colour image to B&W.

[jaapv]

 

Please read your quotes above. Why would you need an action to convert from 8bit to 16bit unless you are working in 32, which absolutely no one I know.

I think you misread my posts. If so I apologize for not making myself clear.

The image is 16 bit all the way through, so the action is not to fiddle with bit depth.

The action is

1. Layer as copy( (to enable the next step in case I have no layers)

2.Flatten the image

3.Convert Grayscale (16 bit) to RGB (16 bit)

4 Open Silver Efex plugin

 

I prefer hitting one function key to a series of clicks.

 

I do edit in 32 bits sometimes btw, to avoid posterisation in DMR files which are 16 bit files to start with - the same argument as editing 8-bit files in 16 bit.

[250swb]

 

and does all the convoluted fiddling about listed above in this thread make any practical difference to the final images ..... ???

 

It certainly doesn't improve matters. All anybody needs to do is set ACR to output in 16 bit Pro Photo or Adobe RGB and work with the MM file as an RGB file all the way through post processing. The Grey Gamma that ACR defaults to is a red herring.

 

Steve

[jaapv]

It certainly doesn't improve matters. All anybody needs to do is set ACR to output in 16 bit Pro Photo or Adobe RGB and work with the MM file as an RGB file all the way through post processing. The Grey Gamma that ACR defaults to is a red herring.

 

Steve

There you are: a red herring. It should be a grey herring on the Monochrom:p

[thighslapper]

 

Where are these presets? SEP2, Photoshop??? I am not able to get those to work within SEP2 and it makes no sense as to why.

 

Yes.

 

They are in LR4 amongst the presets.....

 

..... and ignore my previous nocturnal ramblings ...... in the sober light of day I can see what LR is doing .......

 

...... I did not look carefuly enough ... the values assigned to the RGB channels are in fact identical (predictably) ..... the colour filter pre-sets selectively alter each so the luminance value of various bits of the image change in a different manner for each one .......

 

Thanks for the explanation Jaap....... it all makes a bit more sense now....

[Guest WPalank]

It certainly doesn't improve matters. All anybody needs to do is set ACR to output in 16 bit Pro Photo or Adobe RGB and work with the MM file as an RGB file all the way through post processing. The Grey Gamma that ACR defaults to is a red herring.

 

Steve

 

What I have been saying all along but someone continues to confuse the topic (although some have asked for more simplicity) by continually bringing up Lab.

 

By the way, if set up correctly as I have been saying and 250sb alludes to , again, no need for an action. One simply clicks on the SEP2 button. But then again I have been doing this since August when I received my camera but some of us are new to this as posted here on Feb 17, 2013:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-post-processing-forum/272716-colour-space-monochrom-files.html#post2318849

[Guest WPalank]

They are in LR4 amongst the presets.....

 

For others in the Forum: they are on the left side panel. For example "B&W Contrast Low".

 

...... I did not look carefuly enough ... the values assigned to the RGB channels are in fact identical (predictably) ..... the colour filter pre-sets selectively alter each so the luminance value of various bits of the image change in a different manner for each one .......

 

....by altering the Tone Curve in the Develop Module (make sure it is open and watch the effect) which by definition alters the Luminance values.

 

The HSL portion of the Panel in the Develop Module is grayed out and unalterable as there are no Color channels. This is what has lead to the majority of the confusion in your discussion.

 

Please someone who continues to state that they are able to get the Color Filters to change the image in Silver Efex (fotografr, I guess that is you)...or the Sensitivity Sliders as these are not greyed out yet do nothing to the image.

See Below:

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[fotografr]

 

Please someone who continues to state that they are able to get the Color Filters to change the image in Silver Efex (fotografr, I guess that is you)...or the Sensitivity Sliders as these are not greyed out yet do nothing to the image.

See Below:

 

I don't recall saying that. I haven't even tried to use the Color Filters on MM images in SEP.

 

This discussion has cleared up a lot of questions for me and I'd like to thank everyone for their input. Even though there is some disagreement, there is enough information for me to get on the right track and figure this out for myself.

 

Best,