Options for Shift lenses on the M-240 -Merged

[jdlaing]

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One other choice would be an old Olympus OM Shift or Tilt/shift lens with an adapter.

You have to dig for them but they are around.

[Manolo Laguillo]

Manolo,

 

Other than reversing the direction of the movement/perspective change of the image, does it actually make any difference holding the lens and moving the camera, to holding the camera and moving the lens?

 

Wilson

 

Moving the camera (that's the case with this rig) implies the lens is still when shifting. In other words, what you do is taking consecutive shots of a fixed image circle. This "stillness" of the lens avoids problems with the relationship between the foreground and the background, because there is only one point of view. At infinity this becomes less visible, or even negligible.

For this very same reason the pano rigs are made: when the lens rotates around the so-called 'nodal point', this problem also disappears.

[Manolo Laguillo]

There are of course 2 worlds in the world of shift lenses: long focal ones, and wide angles. Broadly speaking, the first is related to still life, table-top, products, and the second to cityscape and architecture.

 

I'm quoting myself because I forgot to mention a very important, albeit obvious, point: the tilting/swinging of the lens is only a must when the focal length is long and/or the lens-to-subject distance short. Landscape, architecture and cityscape, done with 24mm, 28mm or 35mm shifting lenses, don't need tilting/swinging, because of the obligation of closing down the diaphragm. That's the case with the 28/2.8 Super-Angulon Leica-R : f.11 is explicitly advised by Schneider-Kreuznach when shifting to the limit.

[flyalf]

I'm quoting myself because I forgot to mention a very important, albeit obvious, point: the tilting/swinging of the lens is only a must when the focal length is long and/or the lens-to-subject distance short. Landscape, architecture and cityscape, done with 24mm, 28mm or 35mm shifting lenses, don't need tilting/swinging, because of the obligation of closing down the diaphragm. That's the case with the 28/2.8 Super-Angulon Leica-R : f.11 is explicitly advised by Schneider-Kreuznach when shifting to the limit.

 

Sorry, I dont agree, or perhaps I misunderstand you? Are you refering to DoF or perspective control when you are stating that "24mm, 28mm or 35mm shifting lenses, don't need tilting/swinging, because of the obligation of closing down the diaphragms?".

 

I find perspective control functionality essential for wides. Currently I can do this either trough T/S on lens, or by post-processing.

[Manolo Laguillo]

Sorry, I dont agree, or perhaps I misunderstand you? Are you refering to DoF or perspective control when you are stating that "24mm, 28mm or 35mm shifting lenses, don't need tilting/swinging, because of the obligation of closing down the diaphragms?".

 

I find perspective control functionality essential for wides. Currently I can do this either trough T/S on lens, or by post-processing.

 

I will try to express myself better.

 

Perspective is exclusively controlled by how the camera is positioned in relation to the scene. In other words, it depends from the relative positions of the scene and the sensor/film plane.

What we have in a PC lens is a bigger than normal image circle. In the case of the 28 Super Angulon PC it's a 62mm diameter circle, whereas only 44mm are needed. This allows for the movements.

Shifting the PC lens doesn't affect the perpendicularity of the lens axis in regard to the sensor/film plane. The focusing occurs in relation to things located on a plane in the scene that is parallel to the sensor/film plane.

 

By tilting/swinging (T/S) the lens, its axis loses this perpendicularity. Following Scheimpflug's rule we can focus the lens on a plane that is no longer parallel to the sensor/film plane.

 

We will need this capability when photographing still-lifes and/or we are using long focal length lenses, because we must surmount the limitations of the mere closing of the diaphragm

 

When doing landscape or architecture with 24mm, 28mm and 35mm PC lenses we can achieve a good level of detail from the foreground till the background by simply closing to f.11. No need to swing/tilt the lens. Of course, if we have this feature build into our lens mechanism (the mechanics must accept this movements), we can use it.

 

It's a wrong approach to manage the perspective by tilting/swinging (T/S) the lens.

[masjah]

At the risk of asking the obvious, I didn't think that the Leica recommendation to stop down to f/11 was for reasons of depth of field. I thought it was a question of optimising the optical performance of a lens with such a huge image circle. (As has been said, one would need an 18mm lens to be able reproduce the effect of the maximum landscape horizontal shift. Worse, I think it's actually a 14.6mm lens needed to reproduce the effect of the maximum landscape vertical shift. That's actually a big ask.)

[flyalf]

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....

 

It's a wrong approach to manage the perspective by tilting/swinging (T/S) the lens.

 

Thank you for the explanation. With all due respect I have to disagree on your statement until you can give an explanation on what is wrong.

 

A T/S lens is just another tool, Perspective is how 3 dimensional objects are represented in a 2 dimensions. By using a T/S lens one can alter the perspective. I find it hard to see that the use of T/S to manage the perspective can be wrong in any way. On the contrary; for cityscapes and similar this is IMO quite useful.

 

I can change the perspective in post-processing, but then I'm throwing away some of the pixels. By using a T/S lens one can utilize the full sensor from using a larger image circle allowing T/S, and also change the DoF.

[wlaidlaw]

I have just had contact with Hartblei. The information email I got back from them very promptly is as follows:

 

Wilson

 

Dear Wilson,

 

Just wanted to let you know that the Hartblei Super-Rotator lens is no longer in production. However, the MC TS Arsat 2.8/35mm Tilt-Shift lens is available with Leica R mount.

 

The TS Arsat lens allows "left-right" shift (11mm) and "up-down" tilt (8°) with possibility of rotating the lens on 360°.

 

Price as follows:

 

MC TS Arsat 35mm / f=2.8 Tilt-Shift lens with Leica R mount - $595

Shipping & Handling: $28 via Registered Airmail

========

TOTAL: US$ 623

 

 

Delivery time: 10-14 days.

 

Lens comes in caring case, with one-year Warranty certificate.

 

We accept:

 

- Credit cards /VISA, MasterCard, American Express, Discover, Diners, JCB/

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In case of Credit card payment please, go to the following Secure URL link (you can use the PayPal option as well):

 

https://www.2checkout.com/2co/buyer/purchase?sid=144831&cart_order_id=TS%2035mm%20Arsat%20lens%20Leica%20R&total=623

 

We accept VISA, MasterCard, Discover, Diners, JCB and American Express and debit cards with the Visa, MasterCard logo for quick and easy payment.

 

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If the payment link above does not work properly with your email program, copy the URL directly into your browser. Please make sure that the entire URL makes it into the browser or you will have problems.

 

We'll start process your order after receiving payment confirmation.

 

If you need any additional information feel free to contact us.

 

Regards,

info / Hartblei Co

Aleksey Smirno

[Manolo Laguillo]

Thank you for the explanation. With all due respect I have to disagree on your statement until you can give an explanation on what is wrong.

 

A T/S lens is just another tool, Perspective is how 3 dimensional objects are represented in a 2 dimensions. By using a T/S lens one can alter the perspective. I find it hard to see that the use of T/S to manage the perspective can be wrong in any way. On the contrary; for cityscapes and similar this is IMO quite useful.

 

I can change the perspective in post-processing, but then I'm throwing away some of the pixels. By using a T/S lens one can utilize the full sensor from using a larger image circle allowing T/S, and also change the DoF.

 

I agree 100% with you, and you don't need to convince me about the benefits of such a lens: I use them since many years ago, even now with the M9 :-)

 

But OK, now I see where we got stucked :-) :-)

 

I think we are speaking about different aspects.

 

For me "T/S" means TlLT / SWING, because my mental background is working with the view camera.

For you it means TILT / SHIFT, which is actually the best interpretation of those letters. :-)

 

Let me insist, and I beg you to read carefully : tilting / swinging the lenses we are speaking about_doesn't_affect_perspective, because it doesn´t affect the relationship between the sensor/film plane and the scene.

With a view camera, in which the back can be tilted/swinged, doing it_will_affect_the perspective.

But this is not applicable in the case of the lenses we are speaking about.

 

The best procedure is as follows:

1. Place the camera where it belongs for achieving the desired perspective (=representation of 3D world on a 2D plane, as you say).

2. After that the lens will be shifted to compose the subject adequately.

3. Finally, if the lens mount allows, comes the tilt or swing, to accomplish a finer management of the sharpness.

 

Cheers,

Manolo

[Manolo Laguillo]

At the risk of asking the obvious, I didn't think that the Leica recommendation to stop down to f/11 was for reasons of depth of field. I thought it was a question of optimising the optical performance of a lens with such a huge image circle. (As has been said, one would need an 18mm lens to be able reproduce the effect of the maximum landscape horizontal shift. Worse, I think it's actually a 14.6mm lens needed to reproduce the effect of the maximum landscape vertical shift. That's actually a big ask.)

 

That's right. And that with f.11 the depth of field is bigger is, so to say, a side-benefit.

But because f.11, or at least f.8, has to be used, usually there is no need for tilting/swinging with a 28mm lens when photographing landscapes or cityscapes at infinity. For this reason Schneider-Kreuznach doesn't offers this lens on a mount with that mechanical feature. In this way the price is keeped as low as possible, and the weight and bulk as well.

Canon and Nikon do offer it because they have in mind a photographer who eventually would use their lenses for close-ups.

 

The Hartblei Arsat 35/2.8 has a very nice price, by the way...

[Hausen17]

I am very interested in what peoples thoughts are on the Leica R28/2.8 SA because the one thing I miss since selling my Canon gear is the TS-E option. Am looking at this lens for new M once I get it. Seems the Leica version gets good reviews but the Schnieder version not so much. Can anyone shed light on this for me?

[MarkP]

I am very interested in what peoples thoughts are on the Leica R28/2.8 SA because the one thing I miss since selling my Canon gear is the TS-E option. Am looking at this lens for new M once I get it. Seems the Leica version gets good reviews but the Schnieder version not so much. Can anyone shed light on this for me?

 

I just bought Manolo's spare one so he's the man to ask:)

[Manolo Laguillo]

I am very interested in what peoples thoughts are on the Leica R28/2.8 SA because the one thing I miss since selling my Canon gear is the TS-E option. Am looking at this lens for new M once I get it. Seems the Leica version gets good reviews but the Schnieder version not so much. Can anyone shed light on this for me?

 

Affirmations in internet has to be taken always with care, including, of course, this one :-)

I can´t follow well that presumed difference between Leica and Schneider versions, because it's always the same lens, only the mount is different. It's possible to buy it from Schneider with Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc bajonetts, even with the screw mount for the old Asahi-Pentax. If you want it with the R mount then the distributor is (was) Leica. Just visit the Schneider-Kreuznach web page, and have a look at the pdf where this 28 PC is explained.

In other words, it's a lens made by Schneider-Kreuznach, which when mounted on the R bajonett was sold under Leica's logo. It's a terrific lens. The only problem it had (color aberration) is now easily solved thanks to software improvements.

 

BTW, Mark, you are buying the 28PC when prices are still relatively low. In the next months, when the M arrival approaches, I predict a rise will happen.

[chris_tribble]

I'm currently comparing the Nikon PC-Nikkor 35mm f/2.8 (New) and the Canon 35mm f2.8 in FD mount. Does anyone out there have any thoughts? The Nikkor is a a more modern lens, but there doesn't seem to be much comment on it, whereas the Canon is well regarded SFAIK.

 

Grateful for any "affirmations" - all of which will be taken with the normal pinch of salt...

[sisoje]

I'm currently comparing the Nikon PC-Nikkor 35mm f/2.8 (New) and the Canon 35mm f2.8 in FD mount. Does anyone out there have any thoughts? The Nikkor is a a more modern lens, but there doesn't seem to be much comment on it, whereas the Canon is well regarded SFAIK.

 

Grateful for any "affirmations" - all of which will be taken with the normal pinch of salt...

 

 

 

Forget about both of those and go for Zeiss Distagon 35mm/2.8 shift in Contax mount... I have been using it on my Canon full frame DSLRs for last 8 years with great success. Beats any other shift lens in this focal length... I am waiting for new M to try this lens on!

[John Z. Goriup]

If all you want to do is to address the issue of con /di-verging lines in architectural phoyography, then the old Leica-R 28mm PC lens should be perfectly adequate, but I respectfully submit you'll be missing the entire gamut of picture-taking possibilities inherent in the best Tilt-Shift lenses currently available, and made conveniently accessible to owners of the new M with its "live view" option. Personally, I haven't found a better one than the Canon f3.5 24mm T/S II lens.

 

Sharp from edge-to-edge, superb contrast, dramatically improved CA over the original, now obsolete 24 T/S model, almost imperceptible vignetting, silky smooth mechanical functions, in short, the most capable T / S lens on the market today, as well as being one of the finest conventional 24mm wide-angle lenses available today, I believe. If the Canon 24mm TS doesn't provide sufficient coverage for your needs, consider the Canon 17mm T/S - just as good, but wider. Don't bother with the 45 or 90 until MkII version come out, if they ever will.

 

I'm sure Novoflex or others will make an adapter available.

 

Having said all of the above, the attached shots were taken with my 5D MkII Canon and the above mentioned 24 mm T/S MkII, but I only used the shift feature to straighten out converging lines. I will post some shots in the future using the tilt feature for extended depth-of-field as in critically sharp front-rear landscapes. It's a steep learning curve and I haven't had the time.

 

JZG

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[gravastar]

If all you want to do is to address the issue of con /di-verging lines in architectural phoyography, then the old Leica-R 28mm PC lens should be perfectly adequate, but I respectfully submit you'll be missing the entire gamut of picture-taking possibilities inherent in the best Tilt-Shift lenses currently available, and made conveniently accessible to owners of the new M with its "live view" option. Personally, I haven't found a better one than the Canon f3.5 24mm T/S II lens........

 

......I'm sure Novoflex or others will make an adapter available......

Unfortunately all of the Canon series of T/S lens use electronic aperture control, unless you use them at full aperture you're out of luck.

 

Bob.

[flyalf]

If all you want to do is to address the issue of con /di-verging lines in architectural phoyography, then the old Leica-R 28mm PC lens should be perfectly adequate, but I respectfully submit you'll be missing the entire gamut of picture-taking possibilities inherent in the best Tilt-Shift lenses currently available, and made conveniently accessible to owners of the new M with its "live view" option. Personally, I haven't found a better one than the Canon f3.5 24mm T/S II lens.

 

Sharp from edge-to-edge, superb contrast, dramatically improved CA over the original, now obsolete 24 T/S model, almost imperceptible vignetting, silky smooth mechanical functions, in short, the most capable T / S lens on the market today, as well as being one of the finest conventional 24mm wide-angle lenses available today, I believe. If the Canon 24mm TS doesn't provide sufficient coverage for your needs, consider the Canon 17mm T/S - just as good, but wider. Don't bother with the 45 or 90 until MkII version come out, if they ever will.

 

I'm sure Novoflex or others will make an adapter available.

 

Having said all of the above, the attached shots were taken with my 5D MkII Canon and the above mentioned 24 mm T/S MkII, but I only used the shift feature to straighten out converging lines. I will post some shots in the future using the tilt feature for extended depth-of-field as in critically sharp front-rear landscapes. It's a steep learning curve and I haven't had the time.

 

JZG

 

How do you controll the aperture from the L?

[Manolo Laguillo]

If all you want to do is to address the issue of con /di-verging lines in architectural phoyography, then the old Leica-R 28mm PC lens should be perfectly adequate, but I respectfully submit you'll be missing the entire gamut of picture-taking possibilities inherent in the best Tilt-Shift lenses currently available, and made conveniently accessible to owners of the new M with its "live view" option. Personally, I haven't found a better one than the Canon f3.5 24mm T/S II lens.

 

Sharp from edge-to-edge, superb contrast, dramatically improved CA over the original, now obsolete 24 T/S model, almost imperceptible vignetting, silky smooth mechanical functions, in short, the most capable T / S lens on the market today, as well as being one of the finest conventional 24mm wide-angle lenses available today, I believe. If the Canon 24mm TS doesn't provide sufficient coverage for your needs, consider the Canon 17mm T/S - just as good, but wider. Don't bother with the 45 or 90 until MkII version come out, if they ever will.

 

I'm sure Novoflex or others will make an adapter available.JZG

 

I agree with you 100%: the 2nd version of the Canon 24 TS is a fantastic lens. I used to employ extensively the 1st version, and it was quite hard to cope with its limitations; particularly the Chromatic Aberration was really awful. The 2nd version does overcome brilliantly over all that.

 

But... (because there is a but), the point here, for me, is price and bulk. Now it's still possible to buy the 28 PC-R for about a minimum of 1000 Euros less than the 24TS Canon you mention. We'll see when the new M comes what will happen with the R-lenses prices...

The 2nd reason is bulk: adding the 28 PC-R + adapter to my usual Leica-Walking-Rig (M9 + two lenses) is still acceptable. The 5D + 24TS would add too much weight, really, and a 28PC is ok, because in many occasions a 24mm focal length would be a little bit too much.

 

Your 2 first pictures are splendid examples of my point, BTW: they could perfectly have been taken with a 28PC, because there is still enough space around the buildings :-).

 

Regarding the adapter: Metabones makes one that permits putting the EOS lenses on NEX bodies, with electronic aperture control. It's an expensive adapter, but it opens a possibility, of course: using those Canons 17 TS & 24 TS on a Nex 5N, a combination which would render the equivalence to a 24mm & 35mm in FF, respectively.

 

Regards from Barcelona,

 

Manolo

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[algrove]

@John- Nice B&W images. By the way where did you take these photos?