jonoslack Posted November 26, 2012 Share #361  Posted November 26, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Another forum member has advised me that Jesko believes that activating the R lens code is NOT frameline dependant but as all his adapters bring up the 28-90 framelines he cannot test that his belief is correct. I will just cross fingers for the moment that this is the case. I wish I had thought of this before and ordered the 28-90 Leitax adapter rather than just not specifying and ending up with a 35-135. Wilson  HI Wilson Well, I would have thought that the absolute confirmation will come sooner or later when people start testing the camera - so that if the worst comes to the unlikely worst, then you'll have time to get another adapter from David before the camera arrives.  all the best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 26, 2012 Posted November 26, 2012 Hi jonoslack, Take a look here Preparing for the M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted November 26, 2012 Share #362  Posted November 26, 2012 Hi Wilson, Many thanks. How about the extension tube for the V-lenses you have in the works? Can you specify the right frames lines with that?  The 543195 copy adapter will have 28/90 frame lines.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share #363  Posted November 26, 2012 The 543195 copy adapter will have 28/90 frame lines. Wilson  Excellent news... All these exciting things lining up for the new year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 26, 2012 Share #364  Posted November 26, 2012 Excellent news... All these exciting things lining up for the new year  They go off to the chroming plant on 7th of December. As I am in South Africa from the 9th to the 24th, I would hope to be sending the adapters out early in the new year.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 26, 2012 Share #365  Posted November 26, 2012 They go off to the chroming plant on 7th of December. As I am in South Africa from the 9th to the 24th, I would hope to be sending the adapters out early in the new year. Wilson   Hi Wilson,  Most excellent. Thanks. That will give plenty of time to try 'em out before the M shows up. Have a safe and successful safari. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 26, 2012 Share #366  Posted November 26, 2012 Another forum member has advised me that Jesko believes that activating the R lens code is NOT frameline dependant but as all his adapters bring up the 28-90 framelines he cannot test that his belief is correct. I will just cross fingers for the moment that this is the case. I wish I had thought of this before and ordered the 28-90 Leitax adapter rather than just not specifying and ending up with a 35-135. Wilson  If the Leica adapter is 6 bit coded, it will also have to bring up the correct frame lines for the code to be read as the proper accessory or lens. That is how the codes work for the lenses, 6 bits plus the frame line selected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 26, 2012 Share #367 Â Posted November 26, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) If the Leica adapter is 6 bit coded, it will also have to bring up the correct frame lines for the code to be read as the proper accessory or lens. That is how the codes work for the lenses, 6 bits plus the frame line selected. Â I would tend to bow to Jesko von Oeyenhausen of Leica's superior knowledge on this point and he believes it does not. Another member has mounted a coded Novoflex R to M adapter on a pre-production M, with a 50/75 framline and the R lens menu appeared. Â I think this was certainly the case for the M8, it does not always appear to be the case for the M9. I have hand coded lenses as the wrong code for their frame lines and they seem to work OK. I would guess this only applies if the numerical code is listed along with a frameline code in the lens look-up table. Â I have hopes that a beta tester will be able to confirm this soon, anonymously or with the agreement from Leica that it does not contravene the NDA. Â Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 27, 2012 Share #368 Â Posted November 27, 2012 Wilson: Â Don't forget all the different answers we got from Leica when the M8 came out. For example the UV-IR filters. Initially a certain brand was supposed to be the same as the Leica but in the end the Leica were slightly better. Some of us ended up with two or three sets of filters, the third filter being the proper Leica one. Â The same things went on with the DMR too. For example, an uncoded 19mm would cyan vignette but that same lens coded with ROM had the vignetting corrected by the camera software. That was a case were everybody said ROM only added the lens info in exif and was no other advantage. Â Anyway, just using the UV-IR filter miscommunications as an example, you take a risk buying third party products before the camera is introduced. It only requires a very small change in the firmware code for Leica to require a certain frameline for the M to R adapter to work. We will only know once we see production cameras with production firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted November 27, 2012 Share #369 Â Posted November 27, 2012 If the Leica adapter is 6 bit coded, it will also have to bring up the correct frame lines for the code to be read as the proper accessory or lens. That is how the codes work for the lenses, 6 bits plus the frame line selected. Â That is not exactly true. We had a lot of discussions on this quite a while back. The M9 is different to the M8 in that respect. Edit: I just repeated the test on the M9 with a coded lens mounted and different lenses selected via the Lens Detection MANUAL menu a 28 allows a 35 or 50 to be set and records the selection, a 35 allows a 28 or 50 to be selected and a 75 allows a 28 or 35 to be set. Â The firmware in the M typ 240 is not from the same source as we know and may or may not have things in common with the M9 firmware. It may actually have more in common with the S firmware. In this instance I guess that the (presumed) prices for 3rd party adapters will be trivial in comparison to the investment in the new camera and lenses of course. I'm absolutely sure that some members will be happy to experiment. Â Â Still anything that has been told to us by Jesko is the best possible information right now. Â I think there will be a lot of interesting discussions like this once we get actual production cameras in our hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted November 27, 2012 Share #370 Â Posted November 27, 2012 If the Leica adapter is 6 bit coded, it will also have to bring up the correct frame lines for the code to be read as the proper accessory or lens. That is how the codes work for the lenses, 6 bits plus the frame line selected. Â A gentleman's bet - you are wrong. The frames pop up via the traditional mechanical notch on the lens mount, and not from an electronic reading of the six-bits. Â Is it worth a Guinness? No? A virtual Guinness? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 27, 2012 Share #371  Posted November 27, 2012 A gentleman's bet - you are wrong. The frames pop up via the traditional mechanical notch on the lens mount, and not from an electronic reading of the six-bits. Is it worth a Guinness? No? A virtual Guinness?  I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote. I wasn't referring to the frame lines, but to the functionality of a coded adapter giving the R lens capabilities. In other words, the third party adapters may not only have the proper code, but also the proper lug width to engage the same framelines as the Leica adapter.  I may be wrong on the adapter needing the same framelines setting as the Leica adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 27, 2012 Share #372  Posted November 27, 2012 I sent the following email to Jesko von Oeyenhausen today putting the question in I hope, very unambiguous terms. I will post if I get a reply.  Dear Herr von Oeyenhausen  Please excuse my contacting you when I know you must be so busy with the final development work on the new M Typ 240. You may recall we had some correspondence previously, when we were testing the beta firmware to cure the red edges on M9 images, when using the Wide Angle Tri Elmar.  My question concerns the R menu on the new M. I have a Vario-Elmar-R 80-200mm f/4, which has been permanently converted to M mount with a Leitax mount. This mount has coding pits milled into the mating surface, so I can make the lens have the 'R' code of 110111. The Leitax mount however, does not actuate the frame lines cam and leaves the frame lines in their neutral position of 35/135mm. May I therefore enquire on behalf of both myself and a number of other Leica Camera Forum members, who are in a similar position, do you believe that the new M will require the frame lines in the camera to be in the 28/90mm position, before the camera body will recognise the 110111 code and activate the R lens menu?  In other words, will the new M behave more like an M8, which always seemed to need the frame lines to match the lens code before it would recognise the lens or more like the M9, which seems to require the lens code only and usually ignores the position of the frame lines cam when it recognises the lens correctly.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 27, 2012 Share #373 Â Posted November 27, 2012 A very clear question, Wilson : let's hope he will give a clear answer the same way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted November 27, 2012 Share #374 Â Posted November 27, 2012 "... do you believe that the new M will require the frame lines in the camera to be in the 28/90 mm position, before the camera body will recognise the 110111 code and activate the R lens menu?" Good question, and well-put. Â Â "In other words, will the new M behave more like an M8, which always seemed to need the frame lines to match the lens code before it would recognise the lens or more like the M9, which seems to require the lens code only and usually ignores the position of the frame lines cam when it recognises the lens correctly?" Uh oh. Now you spoilt it. Of course, the M9 also needs the framelines to match the lens code, or it will ignore the code. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 27, 2012 Share #375 Â Posted November 27, 2012 I think Jesko will understand it nevertheless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 27, 2012 Share #376 Â Posted November 27, 2012 When no lens is mounted like when the R adapter is mounted the 28/90 frame lines are displayed, therefore that is probably the answer unless they are turned completely off for some reason on the new M-240.. Confirmed this with David F. Of Dale Photo, FL, USA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 27, 2012 Share #377  Posted November 27, 2012 Good question, and well-put.   Uh oh. Now you spoilt it. Of course, the M9 also needs the framelines to match the lens code, or it will ignore the code.  My Zeiss 25/2.8 ZM Biogon which has a 28/90 bayonet will not register as a 24/2.8 Elmarit, when coded as such on my M8, which is looking for a 24/35/135 frame, whereas it is perfectly happy to do so on my M9. Therefore in certain circumstances, the M9 IS prepared to ignore the framelines position. I think it must be in the look up lens table stored as part of the firmware, as to whether a lens code requires a matching frame line or not. I do also have it on good authority from two members, that when they saw a Novoflex R to M adapter with 50/75 framelines mounted on a pre-production new M, it brought up the R menu.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted November 27, 2012 Share #378  Posted November 27, 2012 ... whereas it is perfectly happy to do so on my M9. I'd be genuinely surprised if that was true.   Therefore in certain circumstances, the M9 IS prepared to ignore the framelines position. I think it must be in the look up lens table stored as part of the firmware, as to whether a lens code requires a matching frame line or not. The manual lens selection via the M9's lens menu does not care about the framelines selected. The automatic lens recognition via 6-bit code does. And you cannot select the R Adapter manually.  So in order to have the 6-bit code 110111 work with 3rd-party R adapters, either (1) the adapter has to bring up the same framelines as the Leica R Adapter does, or (2) Leica must have reserved not only the code point 55-1 for the R Adapter but also the code points 55-2 and 55-3—which would be an unusual move by Leica.   I do also have it on good authority from two members, that when they saw a Novoflex R to M adapter with 50/75 framelines mounted on a pre-production new M, it brought up the R menu. That's good news (and an exception to the rule). So it seems Leica has opted for the user-friendly solution (2). Which means, less R Adapter sales for Leica. So as far as I am concerned, I shall take this 'good authority from two members' as reputed evidence rather than as an established fact, until confirmed by more members than just two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted November 27, 2012 Share #379 Â Posted November 27, 2012 Olaf, Â I was not talking about the manual lens selection table, I was talking about the internal lens look up table which when a certain code is recognised and maybe a certain frameline is set will then apply correction parameters for that lens. I am not setting the 24/2.8 Elmarit manually in the menu selection table but from hand coding the lens as 011001 (25). If you want this to pick up on an M8, you have to hold the lens selection lever in the 24/35 position while switching on and then touch the shuttter release before letting the frame selector lever spring over to the 28/90 position. On the M9 you don't need to bother with this. As you say, Leica must have reserved 25-1, 25-2 and 25-3 for the 24 Elmarit. I can't say from personal experience if they did this for other numbers. However, unless Leica specifically want to use the 55-1 and 55-2 codes for other lenses, it would not be a bad idea to assign these all to the R menu along with 55-3 Â Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 27, 2012 Share #380 Â Posted November 27, 2012 It just came to me the UV-IR feedback from a source at Leica that turned out to be wrong. The Leica source was saying the UV-IR are being made by Hoya and would be the same as the Hoya or B+W UV-IR filters. In the end, the firmware, especially for super wides was better tuned to the Leica filter when it came to the colour vignetting correction. Â I also remember a lot of other things that came out of the mouth of Leica staff and managers that never came in to being, such as the R10. Â The whole point I am trying to make is that buying anything other than a Leica accessory is just plain gambling until the camera actually ships. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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