bybrett Posted September 28, 2012 Share #121 Posted September 28, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Live view is your eyes, your brain and your senses Great quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Hi bybrett, Take a look here What we gave up for the M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jonsi Posted September 28, 2012 Share #122 Posted September 28, 2012 [...] why would one put a LCD screen between the world and our perception of it ? TTL was an improvement for focus, not for composition ! Another great quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 28, 2012 Share #123 Posted September 28, 2012 Best regards, Yet another great quote. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 28, 2012 Share #124 Posted September 28, 2012 There has been a lot of discussion about protrusions here. But I repeat, they are largely irrelevant to the tactile feel of the camera, which is the point. If you are going to carp about protrusions, what about that big, ugly thing up front – the lens? That's some protrusion. But this has not been dragged into the discussion yet … Again, the tactile feel is determined by what we grip – the dimensions of it, and the weight. This is mainly a front plane and a back plane, divided by the depth of the baseplate. When the comparison between the tactile feel of the "old" and the digital M came up, I just got my M3. What did I feel with the fingers of my right hand on the front of the classic design? "R"-lever for film, lever for self-timer. The tactile feel is determined by what we feel, not by opinions. The feeling of the digital M with the right hand on the camera's front is much better than the classical design of the M - though the M3 looks so much better. Are we talking about eyes or about fingers? The original design of the M was the M2 without levers under your right hand's fingers - it just had the push button for film-release (and the original had no lever for frame selection). The M3 was the original "sin", it was a rather heavy camera as well. The front flange-to monitor dimension is irrelevant – an independent. There is no natural law that says that the bayonet front shall protrude by exactly X.xx millimeters from the front body plane, and that the face of the monitor shall be exactly Y.yy millimeters from the back plane. The lens e.g. is already protruding like hell. The mirror housing of any SLR camera protrudes even more, and nobody is complaining. You can have these things protrude to your heart's content, but slim that body down./I[] Anybody who wants the bayonet protruding more from the shell than it does now should deal with the question what solution he proposes for the coupling of some million Leica lenses since the early 30s until today with the rangefinder. If the solution of a slimmed down camera means giving up the core of the M, i.e. optical rangefinder coupled with lenses - this may be o.k. Though it is something completely different than a slimmed down M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #125 Posted September 28, 2012 No. Doesn't bother me at all. Paying for another battery probably doesn't bother you at all because you're saving money driving your wife around in a mini-van. Get a bigger, more expensive battery and let her take the bus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #126 Posted September 28, 2012 Lots of people don't have M8 or M9s, so have no interest in what the old batteries were like. Not everyone who buys an M is trading up from a previous digital M and, incredibly, not everyone who contributes to this forum has an M8/9... Yes. You're right but how many fingers do you need to count them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted September 28, 2012 Share #127 Posted September 28, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Paying for another battery probably doesn't bother you at all because you're saving money driving your wife around in a mini-van. Get a bigger' date=' more expensive battery and let her take the bus.[/quote'] Haha... interesting idea, but did you not see that we were talking about an $80,000 Panamera mini van? I would not be saving any money there. Alas, it is not a good idea to send my wife on the bus. It is certainly is not worth a life without sex! Back to the battery ... If I'm spending $7,000 on the M then I have already conceded that money is a secondary consideration to my desire to shoot a digital rangefinder. Spending another $130 to have a second battery (if needed) to enhance the experience is a non-issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #128 Posted September 28, 2012 [quote name=snooper;2193782… No professional film maker will ever shoot a serious movie with an M' date=' Live view is your eyes, your brain and your senses... M-E is a restrictive M9, therefore opposite direction to improvement, except price wise. As for the M, if we have to carry our car battery on our shoulders to get a few minutes of fuzzy video, or restrict our viewfinder and trade it for a probable poor electronic replacement, and if we have to get all this against weight and size… Then I would say we gave up the M spirit for the new M. Antoine[/quote] That's the spirit! Yes, you are totally correct. Best Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #129 Posted September 28, 2012 Haha... interesting idea, but did you not see that we were talking about an $80,000 Panamera mini van? I would not be saving any money there. Alas, it is not a good idea to send my wife on the bus. It is certainly is not worth a life without sex! Back to the battery ... If I'm spending $7,000 on the M then I have already conceded that money is a secondary consideration to my desire to shoot a digital rangefinder. Spending another $130 to have a second battery (if needed) to enhance the experience is a non-issue. Sure, fill your life with sex and just ignore the important things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted September 28, 2012 Share #130 Posted September 28, 2012 The original design of the M was the M2 without levers under your right hand's fingers - it just had the push button for film-release (and the original had no lever for frame selection). The M3 was the original "sin", it was a rather heavy camera as well. M. The M3 was the first M. The M2 came later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 28, 2012 Share #131 Posted September 28, 2012 As for the M, if we have to carry our car battery on our shoulders to get a few minutes of fuzzy video, or restrict our viewfinder and trade it for a probable poor electronic replacement, and if we have to get all this against weight and size… Then I would say we gave up the M spirit for the new M. Best regards, Antoine Is this a conclusion you have reached from personal experience with the new camera? As for using the EVF... that is primarily for when the optical viewfinder would not be a good solution. Keep in mind that it was once very common to compose photos on a large ground glass screen and some people thought that optical viewfinders were a very inferior method in comparison. Regarding video, plenty of video is shot with all kinds of cameras today. We'll have to wait and see if many make use of the video feature and for what purposes. But including it on the M did not compromise anything as far as I can see. And saying things like, there are better cameras for sports, better cameras for video, etc. Leicas have always been a general purpose small camera that could be used for a variety of things. There have been "better" cameras for portraiture, landscape, architecture, action, medical, microscopy, close-up, fashion, etc. for a long time but many people still used their Leicas for those things. Are you going to buy and carry the "best" camera for every type of application you might want to shoot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 28, 2012 Share #132 Posted September 28, 2012 If the solution of a slimmed down camera means giving up the core of the M, i.e. optical rangefinder coupled with lenses - this may be o.k. Though it is something completely different than a slimmed down M. I don't give a damn if it "is an M" according to somebody's preconceived notions, or not. I don't care what the camera is called. I don't even care if it is a Leica or not – as long as it is as good as a Leica. I am not some kind of religionist. I have used a sequence of M cameras because they fit my style of photography, not because somebody in a burning bush has commanded me to do so. Neither have I undergone some kind of conversion on the road to Damascus. What matters to me is what the camera does, if it does it reliably and well, and how the thing feels in my hands. I used Leica cameras before there was any red dot, except the one on the lens. A Leica M to me is not an investment, it is not a status object, it is not a love affair, it is not a fetish. It is a tool, and I judge it as such. And if an EVF (or retinal transfer, or a divine revelation, or ectoplasm … ) is as fast and clear and positive as the M rangefinder, I am willing to discuss that as a replacement, too. What works, works. As I said before, I will hold the beast, I will feel the beast, I will find out how it works, I will believe what I see. And then I will make my decision to migrate from the M9 to the M – or not. The godless old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted September 28, 2012 Share #133 Posted September 28, 2012 And saying things like, there are better cameras for sports, better cameras for video, etc. ... Are you going to buy and carry the "best" camera for every type of application you might want to shoot? Exactly. You have it right: there are many cameras for many specialized purposes, from medical to underwater, to go to the moon or to shoot golf picture, etc. All kind of stuff I usually don't do. But the Leica M was so far the best camera ever for everything else. I would like to know if you think the attached picture would have been better, or would have had a different impact on the 20th century photography & culture if it was taken with a new M, carrying EVF and LV and... A battery charger of course ? Best regards, Antoine (Picture by René Burri, 1963, Leica M of course) (Picture of Che smoking cigar removed - pop) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted September 28, 2012 Share #134 Posted September 28, 2012 Exactly. You have it right: there are many cameras for many specialized purposes' date=' from medical to underwater, to go to the moon or to shoot golf picture, etc. All kind of stuff I usually don't do. But the Leica M was so far the best camera ever for everything else. I would like to know if you think the attached picture would have been better, or would have had a different impact on the 20th century photography & culture if it was taken with a new M, carrying EVF and LV and... A battery charger of course ? Best regards, Antoine (Picture by René Burri, 1963, of course)[/quote'] Of course, this photo would not likely be better if taken with an M. However, the camera/film combination that took this image did have limitations that a digital M doesn't have. We will never know if there was an important or stunning photo that didn't get taken moments before or after because the scene took place in the shadows and the film in the camera wasn't fast enough to reach it. I personally don't care much about the video, live view or the EVF on the new M... I probably won't use them much. But I also don't believe having them changes the M experience in a material way, unless i choose to use those features. So, the camera is heavier because of a larger battery. For me... So what? Doesn't matter. What does matter really boils down to IQ. Will I get better dynamic range and will I get better high ISO performance than I get from my M9? This might lead to some shots now and then that I couldn't get with my M9 or with a film M. If so and if the difference is a few ounces, then I will probably get the M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #135 Posted September 28, 2012 Exactly. You have it right: there are many cameras for many specialized purposes, from medical to underwater, to go to the moon or to shoot golf picture, etc. All kind of stuff I usually don't do. But the Leica M was so far the best camera ever for everything else. I would like to know if you think the attached picture would have been better, or would have had a different impact on the 20th century photography & culture if it was taken with a new M, carrying EVF and LV and... A battery charger of course ? Best regards, Antoine (Picture by René Burri, 1963, Leica M of course) Yea, Erny Kovaks never looked better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 28, 2012 Share #136 Posted September 28, 2012 I would like to know if you think the attached picture would have been better, or would have had a different impact on the 20th century photography & culture if it was taken with a new M, carrying EVF and LV and... A battery charger of course ? I don't think poor old Che would look as well if it was taken with a digital M - he's been dead for over 40 years now. Of course, this is my way of saying that your question is like asking if the Zapruder film would have had the same impact on us if it was taken with the new digital M. We really would not be able to answer this question. But, we can say that the old film M could not have taken the Zapruder film. The new M is different because the technological times are marching on whether you or I or Leica wants them too. For the time being Leica still makes film M cameras that have remained much the same for those that still enjoy them. More to the point; Leica makes a digital M that can be used essentially the same as the old film M cameras. So, would the photo of Che been better if taken with the new M? Who's to say. This is an emotional question about art and I'm not sure if it could be answered by analyzing the accessories and features of a camera, as you did in your first post. A camera that doesn't exist yet and that none of us have used. Just trying to roll with it, Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #137 Posted September 28, 2012 Ernie Kovacs has been dead longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voigt Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share #138 Posted September 28, 2012 As I said before, I will hold the beast, I will feel the beast, I will find out how it works, I will believe what I see. And then I will make my decision to migrate from the M9 to the M – or not. The godless old man Wisdom comes with age… well, in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 28, 2012 Share #139 Posted September 28, 2012 A couple of millimeters difference matters less than ergonomics IMHO. My M8.2 felt like a soap bar until i bought a Thumbs Up and it became more comfortable than my thinner film Ms since then. The M 240's thumb rest will be as efficient as the Thumbs Up hopefully but i expect some compromise on comfort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 28, 2012 Share #140 Posted September 28, 2012 The M3 was the first M. The M2 came later. This is true for the market. The original design by Heinrich Janke was what we know as the M2. Leitz thought it was not "posh" enough for their premium product. Therefore the simpler design was changed to what we now love as the M3. Some years later they presented Janke's original design as the first "E"-type M. The story is told in Osterloh's book "50 years Leica M" p.90ff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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