Leica R at Photokina 2014

[janki]

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The Leica S camera delivers a stunning quality across the picture surface from the center of the image to the outer corner, even with a powerful wide-angle lens.

It's terrific!

However I do not see the chance that this camera is ever going to be used with new long S telephoto lenses, 250 - 500mm, 200 - 400mm equivalent to 35mm format, as very likely.

 

The new Leica M camera has an exciting new CMOSIS sensor that looks promising especially when we talk about wide-angle photography, even used with R lenses and adapter.

But the Leica M rangefinder concept will never be a system particularly well suited for use with long telephoto lenses, and it is unlikely that Leica will create any new "long" M telephoto lenses, - I think?

 

Then is my conclusion, as it seems now, that Leica's future niche in the photographic market will be camera and lens manufacturing in the area powerful wide angle to short telephoto.

 

For bird photographers and plane spotters, it is still Canon and Nikon that applies, - or maybe even Sony.

[mjh]

Pentax has 4 DSLRs in their current range: K5-IIs, K5-II, K-r and 645AF Digital which is a medium format DSLR. Olympus tehnically still has the E5. Technically.

The Pentax DSLR line-up comprises the K-5 II(s), K-30 (successor of the K-r), and 645D. A successor for the Olympus E-5 is in the works, or so I’ve heard.

 

neither of them are selling in volume. They hold less than 10% of the DSLR market. Imagine if Leica held 10% of that. Hmm.

Yeah, the prospect of owning, say, 5 to 10% of the DSLR market would be reason enough to build an R10. Only that’s not a very realistic proposition.

[-ph-]

There are many people who believe that the classical DSLR is a dying breed. If perhaps not dying completely, the market seems to be pretty much handled by Nikon and Canon very well. So entering that market doesn't sound such a great idea. If birding with 400+mm lenses is a market for Leica to target, then they can do it. Either by making a 400mm lens for the new M, or for the S. As they both have the same pixel size, an S picture can be cropped to a 35 mm equivalent format easily, if maximal magnification is desired.

 

Peter

[hamey]

It's never going to happen, personally now, I am glad. $$$$$$$$$$$$ wouldn't been worth it.

 

As I am still a predominately FILM (SLIDES) user I still have my R and M lenses for that reason.

 

When it comes down to Digital Photography, I still have an open book, at this time I am using a Canon DSLR, and it's terrific, yes it's a 1.6 crop but to me it's images are very good.

Hopefully in two months time my dealer should have the new Canon 6D in stock so I will try it.

What I am hoping for is that it's mirror at 97% will clear the 21-35 and 28-90mm rear lens hood.

If it does, it will be a lovely Christmas present.

 

As for the Leica M, time will tell, if the EVF works for me I will buy one as I can use both my M and R lenses.

But I cannot make up my mind on what Silver or Black.....Lol

 

So forget the R10, It's time to move on, there are much better choices out there.

 

Ken.

[philipus]

I predict that Leica will introduce a brand new camera system at the next Photokina 2014.

 

No offence but zzzzzzz.

[shard]

We begged Leica for a R solution for years and Leica gave us a full solution above and beyond what I and others had dared to dream.

 

1. Full frame. Most were expecting an APSC sensor.

2. M body. A camera that has a rangefinder and takes M and R? Yes please!

3. EVF. Optional but still a bonus.

4. Zoom focusing. Yes.

5. Focus peaking. Even better.

6. Great ISO performance (based on prerelease firmware and hardware, I shot some shots at ISO6400 and it looked really usable on the rear LCD).

7. GPS. Nice to have via the handgrip.

 

I seriously hope they don't waste time on another R solution and concentrate on making more glass available for the S and M. Maybe even rerelease some of the nicer R zooms.

[AlanG]

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...But the Leica M rangefinder concept will never be a system particularly well suited for use with long telephoto lenses, and it is unlikely that Leica will create any new "long" M telephoto lenses, - I think?

 

Then is my conclusion, as it seems now, that Leica's future niche in the photographic market will be camera and lens manufacturing in the area powerful wide angle to short telephoto.

 

For bird photographers and plane spotters, it is still Canon and Nikon that applies, - or maybe even Sony.

 

That is certainly the case now but Sony is leading what may be an inevitable trend towards EVFs for use with all lenses. Long lenses that lack AF and IS will not be state of the art or very popular. So I can't see Leica making them for the M either.

 

But with the M and S Leica has all of the technology in place to move in that direction with a future model that has an EVF and new line of AF lenses. Most likely this will be a full frame camera that can also accept M lenses. And presumably these lenses would also function on the M in MF mode via the EVF.

[janki]

Hi AlanG!

 

I think your analysis is very good and proper.

You are predicting a development for Leica, which I think it is more than likely that we will see within the next few years. It is simply just logical.

In the meantime, I look forward to see the first images taken with the new Leica M, - a camera I certainly will consider to purchase.

 

No camera manufacturers will be able to remain indifferent to the extremely rapid development of the EVF.

If the rumors are correct, the electronic viewfinder in the new Sony FF A99, is so extremely good that it is not at all possible to observe any " lag " ??

[beewee]

If the rumors are correct, the electronic viewfinder in the new Sony FF A99, is so extremely good that it is not at all possible to observe any " lag " ??

 

It is true. I was at the sony booth at the CEATEC trade show in japan and tried out the A99 today. My first thought was "wasn't there suppose to be a EVF in this thing?" In other words I couldn't even tell that what I was looking through was in fact an evf because it was so responsive. To put things into perspective, the evf looked as good as the optics in my M8 ovf, had no perceivable lag just like my 5d2 ovf and blew the socks off of my 5d2 in terms of brightness and clarity. To put it simply, it blew me away. The A99 is several generations ahead of fuji's x series and if leica could rip the A99 evf out and put it into an M camera, I wouldnt miss the rangefinder ovf at all.

[mjh]

To put it simply, it blew me away. The A99 is several generations ahead of fuji's x series and if leica could rip the A99 evf out and put it into an M camera, I wouldnt miss the rangefinder ovf at all.

Actually the Fuji X-E1 has the same OLED panel as the A99. Any difference in responsiveness would be due to the camera, not the viewfinder. Putting the panel of the A99 into the M would do nothing for increasing responsiveless and reducing lag. Not to mention that it is much too early to say whether the M with its designated EVF will be lacking in this regard.

[wildlightphoto]

... it is much too early to say whether the M with its designated EVF will be lacking in this regard.

 

+1

[beewee]

Actually the Fuji X-E1 has the same OLED panel as the A99. Any difference in responsiveness would be due to the camera, not the viewfinder. Putting the panel of the A99 into the M would do nothing for increasing responsiveless and reducing lag. Not to mention that it is much too early to say whether the M with its designated EVF will be lacking in this regard.

 

Yes that's correct that putting the OLED panel on the X-E1 would not buy you much. Using the same panel doesn't mean anything. To make an EVF that is responsive with no perceptable lag or color cast requires careful design at the system level, from sensor, to image processor, to panel. All of these must be in place and it is because Sony has control of all the key components that they managed to put such an impressive EVF into the A99.

 

My point is that Sony has brought the implementation of EVF to a whole new level as compared to Fuji and everyone else for that matter. This is similar to how, before the iPhone came along, no one cared about touch screens because everyone used resistive panels that were not user friendly and required a heavy touch. Apple changed this paradigm by employing capcitive touch panels. Not only that, the original iPhone's OS with its meager Arm11 processor was designed from the ground up to make the GUI responsive. As soon as you touch the panel, the iPhone OS will put other services on hold and give the processor 100% power to drive the panel and GUI which is why the iPhone OS feels so smooth. Note that, I'm by no means an Apple fan-boy and as much as I dislike Apple's closed system and prefer Android, I have to admit that it wasn't until Android 4.1 Jelly Bean OS that we finally saw a similar technology being implemented in Android (aka. Project Butter).

 

Back to the A99 EVF. Sony's implementation on the A99 is impressive. Very impressive. I don't know how good their glass is (I've heard mixed reviews), and I doubt I'd ever buy into their Alpha/NEX systems, but the A99 EVF gives me hope that other camera manufactures will use the A99 EVF (or its sucessors) as a benchmark for responsiveness. Yes, Leica, I'm looking at you.

 

As for the new M, I have a good feeling that it will not be anywhere close to the A99 in terms of EVF responsiveness. The CMOSIS sensor has a read out of 30fps. This is far from sufficient to provide a smooth and naturally looking EVF. If I remember right, the A99 EVF operates at 120fps. This requires some serious system pipeline design and we won't see this from the new Leica M, at least not the type 240. It doesn't mean that Leica can't do it since they do own the IP for the Leica M sensor design and they can certainly improve the readout rate in the next generation, it just means that the current M's EVF will not be anywhere close to the A99 in terms of responsiveness.

[AlanG]

I think I read a comment from a Sony person recently that they did not go with a 36MP chip in the A99 because it would not read out fast enough for the EVF and video performance they wanted. If correct, I don't know how this comes into play on the Nikon D800 when in live view or shooting videos.

[Paul Reading]

Leica completely lost the plot when they made the R8 & R9. Probably the best R was the 6.2,.The poor sales of the R9 was down to the fact that it was a stupid design, this does not mean that the idea of an R digital wouldn't find a market.

 

Personally I love the look, quality and feel of the S2, but it is too big for anything other than professional use. If Leica were to make an SLR for the Amateur market I am sure they would simply make a manual focus camera with an M mount. This would be a much better option because it does not require any lens development, however I think it would require a non-moving mirror as used in the Sony SLR's (Do Sony have a patient on this technology?

[AlanG]

...If Leica were to make an SLR for the Amateur market I am sure they would simply make a manual focus camera with an M mount. This would be a much better option because it does not require any lens development, however I think it would require a non-moving mirror as used in the Sony SLR's (Do Sony have a patient on this technology?

 

The Sony SLT cameras do not have optical viewfinders but have electronic viewfinders instead. They use a fixed semi silvered mirror but this is to reflect some light to a phase contrast auto-focus detector. The bulk of the light goes to the imaging sensor. There would be no reason for Leica to copy this design if they are not going to use AF lenses.

 

Leica could build an SLR with a fixed semi-silvered mirror as has been used by other manufacturers in the past. But I don't think the M's lens flange to film distance could provide enough room.

 

I can't think of any reason why they would make a DSLR for M lenses when it is the R lens owners who want it along with aperture linkage. Leica already chose the EVF route.

[erl]

Leica completely lost the plot when they made the R8 & R9. Probably the best R was the 6.2,.The poor sales of the R9 was down to the fact that it was a stupid design, this does not mean that the idea of an R digital wouldn't find a market.

 

 

You are welcome to your opinion on this, and that is all it is. After 50+ years of using slr's, I declare (opinion) the R8/9 to be the best I have ever used! I am speaking Professionally btw.

 

Horses for courses.

[Paul Reading]

The Sony SLT cameras do not have optical viewfinders but have electronic viewfinders instead. They use a fixed semi silvered mirror but this is to reflect some light to a phase contrast auto-focus detector. The bulk of the light goes to the imaging sensor. There would be no reason for Leica to copy this design if they are not going to use AF lenses.

 

Leica could build an SLR with a fixed semi-silvered mirror as has been used by other manufacturers in the past. But I don't think the M's lens flange to film distance could provide enough room.

 

I can't think of any reason why they would make a DSLR for M lenses when it is the R lens owners who want it along with aperture linkage. Leica already chose the EVF route.

 

I thought a moving mirror would not clear the rear of the M lenses which is why I thought that if they made an SLR to work with M lenses it would need a fixed mirror.

[Paul Reading]

You are welcome to your opinion on this, and that is all it is. After 50+ years of using slr's, I declare (opinion) the R8/9 to be the best I have ever used! I am speaking Professionally btw.

 

Horses for courses.

 

Well it and the R8 did not sell well and I am sure the reason is they were huge. Leica did not have a problem selling the previous R's. I have no doubt the R8 & R9 are good quality but they were not wanted nor loved by Leica fans. Look at the prices of an R8 or 9 on ebay they are half the price of an R7.

[erl]

Well it and the R8 did not sell well and I am sure the reason is they were huge. Leica did not have a problem selling the previous R's. I have no doubt the R8 & R9 are good quality but they were not wanted nor loved by Leica fans. Look at the prices of an R8 or 9 on ebay they are half the price of an R7.

 

I am not at all sure their size is/was the reason. Marketing or lack of it changes not the reality of their quality and performance. The R8/9 are smaller and (I think) lighter than Nikons and Canons. Also have the versatility of having a motor drive or winder or neither. In manual move (sans winder etc) much more compact than N or C. Price is never an indicator of performance btw.

 

But hey, we all assess things differently and I am fine with mine. I trust you are fine with yours.

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[stuny]

Paul -

 

The 6 series of Rs were a lovely camera, killed by Seiko no longer making the shutter Leica was using. When Barbara surpsied me with my first Leica camera and lens I had the choice of the "6" vs. the "8." The shop was very nice to let me use them and I chose the "8." I agree with both of Erl's statements: horses for courses and size, and add to it ergonomics.