Leica's advantage?

[Artichoke]

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you summed up the advantages well

being able to see beyond the frame in real time remains a huge advantage of rangefinders

I greatly enjoyed your Bangkok street series

superb & timely work

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[Paulus]

I wonder how many people miss the part where Kasper writes: "So I will buy the DSLR, but also will keep the M." (emphasis added)

 

 

 

I've read that, but I ask myself all the time; " Is it really possible, that a person spends so much money on a product and than spends time to bash the product before he actually has used it proficiently."

 

I think Kasper has no M9 , that he just made one up. Of course I could be wrong. If he simply proves he has one by making a photo with his M9 of a sheet of paper: with the words " hi I'am Kasper " on it. I would gladly make my excuses for my lack of trust, but for the moment, he seems to me an anonymous ghost with the name Kasper.

[jaapv]

And why exactly would an AF SLR have less "time" to find the appropriate focus point for a "jumping dolphin" than a rangefinder?

 

It is not the camera that is slow, it is the user selecting the focus point. With an RF you see the thing coming.

[earleygallery]

The OP says he has am M and DSLR. He has trouble using manual focus for moving subjects. He has two systems which should cover his needs, and his inability to focus manually in certain situations.

 

He quotes anonymous salesmen and experienced photographers, but dismisses the opinions of experienced photographers here.

 

I really don't understand this thread.

 

As for taking a photo - manually - of people in the street or at conferences, my god how on earth did we all manage before AF came along?

[almoore]

It is not the camera that is slow, it is the user selecting the focus point. With an RF you see the thing coming.

 

Jaap, you're irrepressible. I've clicked thank you as a mark of respect for your sheer persistence. You're right of course, as always, only a rangefinder could ever be good enough to focus on a dolphin, which is why every leading wildlife photographer shuns SLRs in favour of the Leica M.

 

This forum appears to exist in a parallel universe.

[Ivan Muller]

Kasper, a comparison with press photography of the kind you see on television only holds if that is the way you work: trying to get a headshot from 10 meter distance in a crowd of other press photographers. Don't bring an M in that case.

 

Leica bad in low light? Depends on many factors. Here's a picture taken at a light level below an EV of 1 or just 5 Lux, handheld. That's about as dark as a landscape with the full moon overhead and no other light sources.

 

365 PhotoBlog Lindolfi

 

My Canon 5DII AF system would have focussed on the iphone. It does not "understand" how I saw the final image.

 

Hope you find some great photographic moments and do show us some of your results

 

.....and the 'm' of course does understand how you saw the image.....? Sheesh and here I thought cameras were just tools....somehow I don't think I would have had any problems getting my eos to focus exactly where I want it to.....but then maybe your model has a mind of its own....?

[jaapv]

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Jaap, you're irrepressible. I've clicked thank you as a mark of respect for your sheer persistence. You're right of course, as always, only a rangefinder could ever be good enough to focus on a dolphin, which is why every leading wildlife photographer shuns SLRs in favour of the Leica M.

 

This forum appears to exist in a parallel universe.

I never said only a rangefinder - the OP appears to believe that a rangefinder cannot focus a moving object. That is wrong. For me, maybe not for you, it has some advantages. Nobody says you cannot shoot flying Dolphins with an DSLR. You can do it with a Cellphone, whatever tool rings you bell, but let's stick to the misconception

[Lindolfi]

Ivan, no camera understands anything. That's why I used quotation marks. The more automatic you make things, the less you determine yourself. For instance when you switch on all AF points in the 5DII, the system will focus on the iphone in the example I gave. When you decide to do some thinking yourself and switch on the central AF point, aim at one of the eyes, keep half pressed the shutter button and reframe, you get what I aimed for. But that only is possible by sacrificing some of the automatic function of the camera. In this way you can sacrifice more and more, until you have a fully manual camera.

 

So as a photographer, I like to have a mind of my own.

[almoore]

The more automatic you make things, the less you determine yourself. For instance when you switch on all AF points in the 5DII, the system will focus on the iphone in the example I gave. When you decide to do some thinking yourself and switch on the central AF point, aim at one of the eyes, keep half pressed the shutter button and reframe, you get what I aimed for. But that only is possible by sacrificing some of the automatic function of the camera...

 

Or you could simply reassign the autofocus from the shutter release to one of the thumb buttons on the back of the camera (so there's no need for half-pressure on the release) and set the camera up for a mix of control and speed. People are suggesting that any shortcomings of the M are down to inexperience and user error whilst making clear they have little understanding of how to effectively set up and use an autofocus camera.

 

To use any camera effectively you need to understand its quirks.

[Lindolfi]

To use any camera effectively you need to understand its quirks.

 

I fully agree with that, but I disagree with your suggestion that there is a single way of using a camera effectively. Depends on how photographer connects to camera. That is the essence of this thread, which should have been called "Leica's advantage for me, Kasper?" and not "Leica's advantage?"

[jaapv]

 

To use any camera effectively you need to understand its quirks.

Truer words were seldom said...

[brianv]

I don't know why some people waste their time and ours by posting on this forum.

 

If an RF camera is not for you, and you prefer an AF camera- use it.

 

Don't waste your time posting that an RF camera cannot do something that members of this forum have done for decades. Just buy and use an AF DSLR camera, and be done with it.

[lct]

..This forum appears to exist in a parallel universe.

Ha ha quite true sometimes. Many of us are using both RFs and SLRs for some reason.

[Guest Kasper]

I have to understand the quirks to use the camera effectively. Right! What I understand now, after using it is:

 

1: The high ISO is not that good, and is far behind camera’s half of the price of the M.

2: The bufferspeed is very slow. If you need NOW AND THAN a series of pictures fast, and quickly in a row, the M struggles.

3: The LCD screen is worse than those of much cheaper camera’s and it’s hardly to check if a picture is sharp. Something that SOMETIMES also is needed, given the fact that digital photography is much more critical than film.

4: The dynamic range is not as good as that of a top DSLR.

5: Focussing on an RF does have advantages, but also disadvatages, specially with 90 mm and above, at full aperture when the subject moves and you shoot pretty close.

 

Nevertheless I will keep the M9, because it can deliver beautiful pictures. But for situations in which the points 1, 2, and 5 are required, I will use the Canon.

What I also inderstand is that this forum is a place for a lot of people who are so in love with there Leica, that they hardly can be objective. ( understandable but not correct).The last days I did spend time on reading a lot of things about the M9, and I can easily conclude that my findings are not so different from those of the experts.

Also no one on the forum answered my question why they think that so few press photographers don’t use the M.

Finally: someone asked me to post a picture with the text: I am Kasper. I will do that the next days. More than one. At 1600 ISO, Leica and Canon. And 2500. Written on a dark grey curtain or something.

The photographer with whom I spoke was next to me in front of the stage where the singer appeared on the event for children. He was a press photographer, who told me that he worked more than ten years intensively with Leica M in the old days.

By the way: today I made a beautiful picture of a landscape with the M9, and als some outside in the city.

 

Best regards, Kasper.

[Rick]

Kasper, most of what you post can be found in the search function as these shocking realization you are discovering about your M9 have all been discussed many, many times... about 3-years ago.

[Guest WPalank]

4: The dynamic range is not as good as that of a top DSLR.....

 

Dear God, please let this end....

 

5: Focussing on an RF does have advantages, but also disadvatages, specially with 90 mm and above, at full aperture when the subject moves and you shoot pretty close.

 

Holy sh*t, did I get lucky or what?

Note: (Please look at the second image.)

This was my first day using a 90 let alone wide-open. Notice the tiny droplets in flight with the reflection of the surfer entombed (much more noticeable looking at the original DNG).

[Jamie Roberts]

you summed up the advantages well

being able to see beyond the frame in real time remains a huge advantage of rangefinders

{snipped}

 

How about seeing the within the frame in real time while you shoot? I shot a wedding yesterday and some of the bridal party started waving their arms back and forth to music, quite quickly but somewhat erratically. The M9 let me time the waving so I could see their faces instead of their arms in front of their face.

 

I've never had to try to time that before, and so this was rare, but I found I simply couldn't do it easily with the mirror blackout on release on the 5d3 (the shutter was quite slow, 1/30s IIRC). I suppose I could have used live-view on the Canon, but with the M9 getting the right shot was second nature, because I could actually see what I was getting when I shot.

 

I'm also still surprised after all these years at just how robust and reliable the rangefinder is really low light, with lots of movement (like when a group of folks spontaneously dance, for instance). In those cases both my Canons and Nikons just hunt and hunt and mostly don't find focus, where with the right technique I can (and do!) count on the M

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

 

To use any camera effectively you need to understand its quirks.

 

Yes, but one of those quirks with AF systems has traditionally been that the system really does guess what you want in focus (based on contrast and some other things) and the sheer depth and breadth of the focus sensor guess is generally a *lot* bigger and broader than the AF focus indicators, um, indicate The darker it is, and the lower contrast your subject, the worse off you're going to be with most AF systems.

 

On the 5d3 Canon introduced "spot" AF focusing for this very reason, and it's the first AF camera I've owned to date that actually predictably can focus on a selected visual spot and not something shinier or more contrasty "annoyingly just a little in front and to the left"--if you know what I mean. In other words, just far enough out to ruin the shot entirely

 

My Nikons (D3 / D3s) were the absolute worst for this in tungsten light. Shooting a table full of people (as I do at weddings) in low tungsten light, with crystal and candles in front of them would fool the AF system between 70-90% of the time (depends on how low contrast the subject was), even if you placed the focus point on the person and achieved focus lock So if you opened up, say, an 85mm lens to f3.2 or faster, you were sunk, a lot So you shoot wider (where DOF makes up for a lot), stop down (and there goes your high ISO advantage!) go manual focus (not easy on lots of AF lenses) or, in my case, pick up the M9.

 

Now, it's a bit of trick to focus the 75 1.4M, I admit, and the fastest 90 I have is f2.8 these days. But at least the system doesn't out-guess me.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest WPalank]

Dear God, please let this end....

 

 

 

Holy sh*t, did I get lucky or what?

Note: (Please look at the second image.)

This was my first day using a 90 let alone wide-open. Notice the tiny droplets in flight with the reflection of the surfer entombed (much more noticeable looking at the original DNG).

 

errr.....sorry!

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/street-photography/254644-out-surf.html#post2175675

[Rick]

Kasper, if you want to see what a professional photographer and true artist can do with an M9 and a 5DIII (manual focused with Leica R-lenses), click on Jamie's link. Lots of examples of great photography of non-static subjects in all kinds of light, all done without autofocus with both a M9 and DSLR.