R - Telephoto lenses

[topoxforddoc]

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Ah ... the 180 Cron. Current Ebay price €3,990 (eBay | Leica R 1:2/180mm Apo-Summicron-R 3CAM 11271). Good value in some senses, a step too far in others!

 

Chris,

 

R lenses have rocketed in value in the last year. I bought my 180 cron as a demo lens from Leica UK about 6 years ago for £2200 with Passport. It is my all time favourite R lens and is just an amazing concert lens.

 

Charlie

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[chris_tribble]

Ah, les beaux jours....

[Rick]

Hi Chris,

 

I have had the same thoughts as you about ditching the DSLR for a Leica M work around R-solution. I hope the increased ISO and the I hope the EVF with focus peaking will work well enough for occasional long lens use and occasional use with my 90 Macro Elmar.

 

I started picking up a few R lenses last year in anticipation of the "R solution" Leica had hinted at. On the long end I found a Telyt R 280 2.8 in a nice case with an APO 1.4X extender for $2,900. It is a huge hunk of glass but, it is an amazing optic. It would make an amazing concert telephoto with a high ISO capable M. Here is a shot wide open from late this summer outside. This is not a zoo. It was from a short hike at Logan Pass in Glacier National Park, Montana. Heavy'ish Mnfroto tripod. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/253390-mountain-goat.html

 

I don't know what the Telyt 280/2.8 would sell for now but, if you subtract the APO 1.4 from the price I paid it gets it into the ball park of $2,000.

 

I also picked up a Telyt R 280.f4 but that was just over $3,500. I haven't been able to see much difference in the quality of image between these two. The 280/f4 is probably a litter sharper across the image but, the 280/2,8 is flat out unbelievably sharp and the color and contrast on both are amazing.

 

I plan on keeping one and selling the other next year when I anticipate the market will be better for selling good R lenses. I believe that you would have to be a professional to want to lug around the 280/2.8 for special lower light shooting jobs. The 280/4 seems compact. I also hold out the right to change my mind and sell both as I may not use any telephoto enough to justify owning and carrying either.

[topoxforddoc]

Hi Chris,

 

I have had the same thoughts as you about ditching the DSLR for a Leica M work around R-solution. I hope the increased ISO and the I hope the EVF with focus peaking will work well enough for occasional long lens use and occasional use with my 90 Macro Elmar.

 

I started picking up a few R lenses last year in anticipation of the "R solution" Leica had hinted at. On the long end I found a Telyt R 280 2.8 in a nice case with an APO 1.4X extender for $2,900. It is a huge hunk of glass but, it is an amazing optic. It would make an amazing concert telephoto with a high ISO capable M. Here is a shot wide open from late this summer outside. This is not a zoo. It was from a short hike at Logan Pass in Glacier National Park, Montana. Heavy'ish Mnfroto tripod. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/253390-mountain-goat.html

 

I don't know what the Telyt 280/2.8 would sell for now but, if you subtract the APO 1.4 from the price I paid it gets it into the ball park of $2,000.

 

I also picked up a Telyt R 280.f4 but that was just over $3,500. I haven't been able to see much difference in the quality of image between these two. The 280/f4 is probably a litter sharper across the image but, the 280/2,8 is flat out unbelievably sharp and the color and contrast on both are amazing.

 

I plan on keeping one and selling the other next year when I anticipate the market will be better for selling good R lenses. I believe that you would have to be a professional to want to lug around the 280/2.8 for special lower light shooting jobs. The 280/4 seems compact. I also hold out the right to change my mind and sell both as I may not use any telephoto enough to justify owning and carrying either.

 

About 4 years ago, I had simultaneously in my possession the APO 280/4, APO 280/2.8 non modular and the Tamron 300/2.8 SP LDIF. The APO 280/4 was noticeably the best lens - razor sharp wide open with no detectable CA or fringing. To be honest, there was not much between the APO 280/2.8 and the Tamron. The Tamron was marginally softer wide open and had fraction more colour ringing - but that was it.

 

As for using the 280/2.8 as a concert lens - that'll be at the sound desk then. You couldn't wield that at the front in the pit,as you're not allowed monopods or tripods in the pit for most gigs.

 

Best wishes,

[Rick]

I don't think I'd want any 280mm at the front of the stage.

 

The 280/2.8 non-modular is really a fantastic lens and is a stop faster than the 280/4 with not much of a penalty on image quality. That extra stop often translates into a stop faster shutter speed which can make a greater difference to the sharpness of the image even outside during the day. I have both right now and I have to say they are extremely similar.

[topoxforddoc]

I don't think I'd want any 200mm at the front of the stage.

 

A lot of guys will use a Nikon/Canon 70-210/2.8 in the pit. My favourite weapon is 180/2 Summicron on my DMR. An unbelievable tool. Here’s Macy Gray shot earlier this summer at Cornbury from the Pit with my DMR/180 cron.

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[dgktkr]

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In post #18 of this thread, Doug shows a photo of a weasel using a 560mm f/6.8 Telyt. The picture is especially interesting because it seems to show color fringing for out of focus objects, but not those in focus. He refers to a post by Andy Piper also using a 560mm f/6.8 Telyt showing similar characteristics.

 

For instance, look at the top of the picture with the weasel. The twig (or whatever it is) that runs more or less parallel to the top border is orangish in the center and green top and bottom. The effect looks the same for twigs oriented more or less radially to the optic axis and ones oriented more or less tangentially. Also, notice that the hue of the gravel that is in focus is a uniform tan, and away from the plane of focus, the tan develops a tendency to green and orange splotches. Is the green towards the dark side of the edges, or am I imagining that?

 

Fascinating!

 

Andy's example also shows little fringing around the objects in focus, but very definite colors around objects out of focus. Here the green is definitely towards the darker side of an edge and the orange is on the lighter side.

 

Does anyone have a good idea of what is going on here? Normally, longitudinal chromatic aberration is defined for in focus objects. (A good review of the topic can be found here: Chromatic aberrations) This doesn't seem to be what Doug and Andy are showing.

 

Nor do they seem to be showing lateral chromatic aberration, which will show one color at an edge away from the optical axis and the complementary color on the edge towards the optical axis for tangential edges. And in the perpendicular direction, i.e. radial edges, there is no fringing due to this type of aberration. Andy's photo seems to show colors at light/dark edges irrespective of their orientation with green on the dark side of the edge.

 

Could it be that what is demonstrated here is color dependence of the effective aperture?

 

Is there anyone who can comment and provide us with some insight as to what is going on here?

 

dgktkr

[wildlightphoto]

In post #18 of this thread, Doug shows a photo of a weasel using a 560mm f/6.8 Telyt. The picture is especially interesting because it seems to show color fringing for out of focus objects, but not those in focus. He refers to a post by Andy Piper also using a 560mm f/6.8 Telyt showing similar characteristics.

 

I'm pretty sure Andy's photo was made with a 250mm f/4 Telyt as an example of another non-APO lens that shows this effect.

 

For instance, look at the top of the picture with the weasel. The twig (or whatever it is) that runs more or less parallel to the top border is orangish in the center and green top and bottom. The effect looks the same for twigs oriented more or less radially to the optic axis and ones oriented more or less tangentially. Also, notice that the hue of the gravel that is in focus is a uniform tan, and away from the plane of focus, the tan develops a tendency to green and orange splotches. Is the green towards the dark side of the edges, or am I imagining that?

 

You're not imagining it. I don't know what the correct technical term for this is but on another forum the popular description of it is 'bokeh color fringing'. I suspect the color fringes would be reversed in the foreground OOF areas. What I do know is that I've deleted many images made with the 560mm f/6.8 Telyt where there was way too much of it to tame with Photoshop. I've never seen it with the 280mm f/4 APO. (I'm still keeping the 560 because when this isn't a problem the lens is an outstanding bargain.)

 

EDIT: upon reflection it may be different degrees of correction for spherical aberation depending on wavelength. I believe this is called spherochromatism.

[chris_tribble]

Some useful comments here - thanks.

 

re 300 - obviously this is for those days when you have to go back. As much as possible I work soundcheck / rehearsal where you can get really close and work mostly with 28/50 (I love the intimacy of these - see recent work: Fred Hersch at the Purcell Room 2012)

 

re 70-200 - For concerts / stage, at the moment the Canon suits me well, and it's a great lens IMHO. I'll be interested to see how I do with the R 80-200 f4 works. If I can live with one stop less, it might work.

 

For now I'm trying to limit my lens lust (anything R with APO at the front just feels way too expensive), with the thought that an earlier series Nikkor 300 f4 might be the way to go if I do find that the M suits my needs at longer lengths.

[philipus]

Are the APO R lenses always so much better than non-APO lenses or are there exception?

[wlaidlaw]

Philip,

 

Maybe not 100% relevant to R lenses but I have used 90/2 APO Summicron and 90/2.8 Elmarit M back to back and also 135 APO Telyt against 135 Tele-Elmar. Obviously one cannot test the Elmarit-M at f2 where the "APO" difference might be at its greatest but from f2.8, I would say that the images are indistinguishable. If anything, from f4 to f11, the Elmarit might even be the tiniest bit sharper than the APO Summicron. There is no evidence of chromatic aberration on the Elmarit-M that I can see. For that reason, I handed back to the kind dealer who had lent me both lenses, the APO Summicron and kept the Elmarit-M.

 

On the 135's there is a bit more difference but how much of that is just down to a much more modern lens design and how much to the "apochromaticity" of the lens, I could not say. Bang for your buck, unless you use a 135 every day, I would still buy a T-E again, rather than the APO.

 

I get the impression on the earlier R lenses, particularly the longer ones, that Leica were feeling their way a bit and again like the 135's, the improvement may be down more to improved general design than the APO feature. Leica did not have any tradition of producing great long lenses at the time that Leicaflex and R lenses were being designed. Making great lenses of a specific type is not something I assume, that you learn overnight.

 

Wilson

[philipus]

Thank you very much, Wilson. It is interesting that you mention the 90mm M lenses as example - I thought about including them as example of what I meant (I have the Elmarit-M myself and like it a lot )

[wildlightphoto]

Are the APO R lenses always so much better than non-APO lenses or are there exception?

 

At 180mm and longer I'd say the APO lenses have a clear advantage over non-APO R lenses, which are older designs. Comparing the 100 APO with the 90mm Summicron-R the APO is best at image detail, color saturation and field curvature, while the Summicron's bokeh is typically more pleasant. I have not compared the 100 APO with a 90mm Elmarit-R.

[fernando_b]

I have either. The Elmarit 90 R, 2nd generation, is very sharp, except af f/2.8 where is "only" sharp. It is prone to flare!

The APO 100 is superior: it is incredibly sharp!

Fernando.

[chris_tribble]

Gentlemen / Ladies - having just failed on a bid for a rather nice looking Leitz Telyt-R 250mm f/4 APO

Leica Leitz Telyt-R 250mm f/4 APO Objektiv | eBay I've decided to hunt around for a less expensive alternative to a focal length that I only use half a dozen times a year (if that). My current solution is a Mk1 Canon EOS 300 f/2.8...

 

Does any one have thoughts on the early Nikkor f4.5 ED-IF lenses (there's an example lower down the page here: Additional Information on Nikkor 300 mm f/4.5 ED, Nikkor 300 mm f/4.5 IF-ED & Nikkor 300 mm f/4.5)

 

The logic is that:

- I'm going to get better handling from a lens that is designed for manual focus

- It has internal focusing and good close focusing range

- it doesn't require internal filters as is with some of the later models...

- It's also the case that they can be obtained for very reasonable amounts of money!

 

Very grateful if you have experience / thoughts on this.

[wlaidlaw]

Chris,

 

Historically Canon long lenses have had a better reputation than Nikon ones, just like Nikon film bodies had a better reputation than Canon ones. One advantage is that you can go the single adapter route (Fotodiox FD to M). If you think of a group of sports professional photographers, I would bet that the vast majority of them will be using the grey/white Canon long lenses. The New FD 200mm f1.8L and New FD 300mm f4L had for a long time, the highest MTF scores on Photodo.de of all full frame lenses, including Zeiss and Leica. You just need to make sure you are getting the L version.

 

Wilson

[wildlightphoto]

Gentlemen / Ladies - having just failed on a bid for a rather nice looking Leitz Telyt-R 250mm f/4 APO

Leica Leitz Telyt-R 250mm f/4 APO Objektiv | eBay I've decided to hunt around for a less expensive alternative to a focal length that I only use half a dozen times a year (if that). My current solution is a Mk1 Canon EOS 300 f/2.8...

 

This ebay item was mis-labelled. The 250mm Telyt isn't APO.

 

Does any one have thoughts on the early Nikkor f4.5 ED-IF lenses

 

Telephoto Lenses For Nikon 'F' Mount

 

Historically Canon long lenses have had a better reputation than Nikon ones

 

I wasn't impressed with the FD 400mm f/2.8 L

[chris_tribble]

This ebay item was mis-labelled. The 250mm Telyt isn't APO.

 

Well that's good to know! Glad I didn't go above the limit I set myself!

 

WILSON - re the Canon 300 f/4 L, the biggest problem is that it's very difficult to find! Extensive searching only brings up one - and it's around $1500.

 

re the Nikkor, it does look as if the ED glass Internal Focus lens is looking like an inexpensive way of getting this focal length. Not a stellar lens, but it looks as if it might be a sensible way to go. The comments here are encouraging (Telephoto Lenses For Nikon 'F' Mount) and I think I can get one for around £500 in near mint condition... Even if it doesn't work out, it's a lens which I'll be able to sell with little or no loss.

 

Interesting times...

[chris_tribble]

Well - I know this is not strictly on-topic, but it sort of fits... I've just got an FD fit Nikkor 300 f/4 ED and had a play guess focusing it on an M9 and comparing against the Leica Apo-Telyt 135 f3.4.

 

I have to say it comes out reasonably well. Working in the kitchen (not in its tidiest state - but dinner will be good!) and thought you might be interested. I'm not selling my Canon EOS 300 2.8 L yet, but at 900 gms, the Nikon has to be a more realistic object to carry around! Some examples below (100% crop for each). Obviously the JPEG artifacts that come in when exporting to fit here are an issue for any evaluation, but at this end, the little Nikon is looking quite good. I look forward to testing it for real on the M.

 

Again - interesting times ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[wizard]

Well - I know this is not strictly on-topic, but it sort of fits... I've just got an FD fit Nikkor 300 f/4 ED and had a play guess focusing it on an M9 and comparing against the Leica Apo-Telyt 135 f3.4..

 

Well, to me all the characters of the lettering on your microwave oven seem to be better defined in the Leica shot, despite the Nikkor lens having a considerable advantage due to its higher magnification factor.

 

Andy