New M mount 50mm F1.13 coming.

[menos I M6]

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I can't believe it - just did my first ever payment on a product, that is not available yet.

I saw the photos OF the lens (nice and compact with a sleek design - I anticipated the usual "hacked barrel design", but I am positively surprised).

 

Then I saw minimum focussing distance of 0.8m and something clicked … the next thing, I knew was, that I have made a payment.

Now there is hope, that the scheduled delivery date of latest 20th December 2012 is met, so I have a nice little Christmas present ;-)

 

I hope, Miyazaki san designed the lens, to be easily disassembled, adjusted and serviced, so each customer can customize focussing to their needs (I like minimum focus wide open performance and could care less about infinity wider than ƒ4).

 

I am astounded by the very low weight of ~200 gr !!! This, I fear is accomplished only by using aluminum helicoids (cheaper to produce, both in material costs and machining costs).

Full brass helicoids are unreached in smoothness longterm over many decades - aluminum just needs more attention and more regular servicing :-( )

 

I am curious how this 5 element lens fairs, looking forward to samples, especially in regards of it's Multi Coating.

 

I don't like the lens hood design - that will be the first thing, I will change (looking for a reverse conical, large vented hood.

 

Excited !!!

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[luigi bertolotti]

....

I hope, Miyazaki san designed the lens, to be easily disassembled, adjusted and serviced, so each customer can customize focussing to their needs ....

 

This, indeed, would be the right way to engineer a lens that is for a limited public of amateurs which are mentally well disposed to take care by themselves of it : such a manufacturer can't afford to bring to the market a device that has all the contents of a industry-level product... the best way is to make things so that one has the capability to do by himself some level of maintenance.

[jaques]

agreed: however one hopes that one would not need to disassemble and service the lens too often though. Whilst I am of that type who is happy to tinker and adjust: I also know my limits and don't want to need to own a complete set of camera/lens repair tools...

 

It is interesting how small this lens seems to be- and how light weight for an f1 M lens... I would have thought the glass alone would weigh 200 grams- not the entire lens..

 

Does the sonnar type design share any similarities with distagon type lenses? It has the look of a vintage distagon...

[Carl E]

... and another thing: Is it rangefinder coupled? It s a bit difficult to see a sloping focusing cam in the pictures published.

[brianv]

The Sonnar is more derivitive of the Tessar, basically an asymmetric triplet.

 

The Distagon looks like a Planar formula lens made into a retro-focus wide-angle by placing large negative elements in front to increase the back focus.

 

I "spent the allowance" on the M Monochrom. And am showing remarkable restraint and maturity...

 

The adjustable element is marked as compensating for coma. Coma and SA are related, Spherical Aberration is also called "Aperture Aberration" in some books (Neblette). This adjustment should help compensate for focus shift when stopping the lens down. Pick the aperture that you want to optimize for, actual focus should line up with the F-Stop selected. On a Sonnar, actual focus shifts towards infinity as you stop down- but the split image in the RF does not show this. You can either increase the main shim to compensate, or move the rear group in closer to the front- which decreases focal length. Either action makes the actual focus move closer and the image agrees with the RF. I have not had coffee yet. My head hurts.

[jaques]

The name 'M-S Optical R&D' is so much more acceptable than 'SLR Magic'... and the black anodised/chromed (?) alloy lens body and stark white markings reminds me of the brutalist -no-nonsense-military(?) appeal of the old USSR PENTACON Practica 50mm f2 lenses of the early 1980's... the 'opalescent' multicoating reminds me of those vintage Russian lenses as well... I wonder where the glass comes from?

 

for an F1.1 lens it seems to be remarkably small and light compared to everything (?) that has come before, canon 1.2 & 0.95, noxtilux f1.2, f1 and f0.95, nokton f1 and SLR hyperprime...

 

it seems to only protrude 3.5cm from the body?

 

Why has no one made such a compact fast M lens before?

 

I note they are no longer taking pre-orders until further notice... I wonder what number I was on the list? I hope I get # 007...

[jaques]

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first spanner in the works may have already cropped up: one poster on RF forum seems to be suggesting the lens will not focus as normal on an M camera:

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123549

[jaques]

jury is out as to my above post- perhaps there is no problem ... in the meantime some apparent sample images have cropped up:

 

http://www.digifan.cn/detail.asp?ID=23886

[menos I M6]

first spanner in the works may have already cropped up: one poster on RF forum seems to be suggesting the lens will not focus as normal on an M camera:

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123549

 

This is not correct.

It is suggested, that the rear group shifting should not be used below 4m, when the lens is used on a RF camera, as focus will shift enough from the indicated rangefinder focussing, to have an impact in your image (out of focus).

 

The feature can be safely used though, when used with life view cameras of course.

 

When the rear cell shift is set within advised range, the lens can be normally operated on a RF camera (see the RF coupling cut out on the M mount? it is as large, as on any M mount lens, that couples close).

[brianv]

With some experimentation, I am sure you could come up with a combination of F-Stop and position of rear element that allows the RF to be used across range.

 

 

I should try an experiment on a J-3.

[andybarton]

Is this more of a real product that that cheap Nocti-lookalike that was glued together?

[wlaidlaw]

I am afraid with a lens as far "left field" as this, I would not dream of buying before trying or at the very least reading an expert test by someone like Sean Reid or Erwin Puts. I suspect it is going to draw similarly to the 50/.95 Canon at best but more probably like the pre-war fast Schneider lenses, with very soft corners, lots of coma, light drop off and low MTF, even in centre frame.

 

I am not doubting Mr. Miyazaki's skill and commitment as a lens artist but I do doubt his ability to have the skill, software and hardware tools to compute and construct a lens as difficult as a 50/1.13. Unless you are going to use multilevel correction with many elements like Zeiss do in their ZM lenses, a 5 element lens of this speed has to have asymmetric elements to correct spherical, and chromatic aberration plus geometric distortion across the frame, with a flat focus field. Look how difficult Leica has found it with all their skills and resources (remember the glass raw material which took 6 months to make in a platinum crucible under inert gas for the previous Noctilux and it still had significant coma).

 

Wilson

[Hannes Lummes]

Well, the MTF does look slightly better than in nocti f1. There is the floating element, and therefore some improvement available.

Now I've only seen those flower pictures, but from them I would at least say that the bokeh is very, very nice, even front bokeh is quite OK. Well, the scene was not particilarly critical, but still, does look like it is a fine performer stylistically, but of course very soft at such close range.

[wlaidlaw]

Well, the MTF does look slightly better than in nocti f1. There is the floating element, and therefore some improvement available.

Now I've only seen those flower pictures, but from them I would at least say that the bokeh is very, very nice, even front bokeh is quite OK. Well, the scene was not particilarly critical, but still, does look like it is a fine performer stylistically, but of course very soft at such close range.

 

Nice bokeh often comes from lots of coma. That's why people still like and use the Leica Summar and fast LTM Canons. I would want to see third party MTF figures, preferably done on a Zeiss K8 or similar tester. The other issue will be production consistency. The Perar lens was not great in this aspect. Again recall that Leica, even in recent years, found it close to impossible to make the 35/1.4 ASPH Summilux V1 to a consistent high standard and from what I hear from friends who were early adopters of the new lens, were still struggling with the FLE successor (colour fringing and focus accuracy issues).

 

Wilson

[brianv]

It's a design used for an F2 lens stretched to F1.13. The classic tricks of splitting elements into groups, and doublets into triplets is not used. It's being made and sold at a reasonable price for a low-production, novelty lens. The 50/1.1 Nokton will outperform it wide-open, and cost less. But many people describe the Nokton as "boring". Performance-wise, i would not even guess at what the Sonnetar will do. It will be unique. The Canon 50/0.95- no where near as sharp as the 50/1.1 Nokton, but sells for 2x as much these days. I end up using the Nokton over the Canon. But the Canon is anything but boring, and this new lens will meet that requirement.

[brianv]

Been playing with the formula for focal length. Rounded things off to "about" for the post.

 

A typical focus shift for a 5cm F1.5 Sonnar is ~0.05mm, stopping down from F1.5 to F4. That amount of focus shift will produce ~50mm back focus at 1meter. Increasing the focal length about 0.15mm (from 51.6mm to 51.75mm) should compensate for the shift. Does that sound reasonable?

[rramesh]

Wasn't it not too long ago when forum-ers were going gaga over a lens that had not yet shipped.

[menos I M6]

With some experimentation, I am sure you could come up with a combination of F-Stop and position of rear element that allows the RF to be used across range.

 

 

I should try an experiment on a J-3.

 

I am absolutely hyped by the idea of playing with this lens, finding a perfect combination of collimation, use of floating element shift and wide open lens, to shoot close up portraiture.

It looks, as if this is the dream lens for Sonnar lovers and lens tinkerers

 

Is this more of a real product that that cheap Nocti-lookalike that was glued together?

 

It is in so far real, as MS Optical and Miyazaki san are institutions in the world of lens conversions, special design and low quantity production of specialty lenses.

MS Optical is not an "invented lens manufacturer" riding on marketing hype, but rather a very modest operation, producing real products.

This is the very reason, why I parted with the high sum up the pre order deposit without second thoughts and doubts.

 

I am afraid with a lens as far "left field" as this, I would not dream of buying before trying or at the very least reading an expert test by someone like Sean Reid or Erwin Puts. I suspect it is going to draw similarly to the 50/.95 Canon at best but more probably like the pre-war fast Schneider lenses, with very soft corners, lots of coma, light drop off and low MTF, even in centre frame.

 

Wilson

 

Wilson, don't get this wrong, but if anybody is in doubt about this announced product, asking themselves about whether it might be for them, wanting to have the issued MTF charts proven by another source, than simply this lens is probably not for you.

 

This is not a lens to compete with recent Leica glass. This is not a lens, that will be a high performance optic, showing scientific perfect even resolution, free of aberrations.

 

This is a product entirely and only targeted at vintage lens lovers - maybe even only targeted at the personal taste of Mr. Miyazaki himself, but offered to the market, as he realizes, that there are many people around, who indeed do not have MTF charts high on their priority list, but instead a specific rendering, modern Leica lenses cannot give them, as they are already far to advanced and perfect, to render in favor of personal preferences.

 

This is the very sole base of the vintage lens market - people buy old lenses, as they prefer their (imperfect) rendering.

 

It's a design used for an F2 lens stretched to F1.13. The classic tricks of splitting elements into groups, and doublets into triplets is not used. It's being made and sold at a reasonable price for a low-production, novelty lens. The 50/1.1 Nokton will outperform it wide-open, and cost less. But many people describe the Nokton as "boring". Performance-wise, i would not even guess at what the Sonnetar will do. It will be unique. The Canon 50/0.95- no where near as sharp as the 50/1.1 Nokton, but sells for 2x as much these days. I end up using the Nokton over the Canon. But the Canon is anything but boring, and this new lens will meet that requirement.

 

Very well described ;-)

Incidentally, I had once the choice between a new Nokton 1.1 and the Noctilux ƒ1, that became my favorite 50mm. Money aside, your description hits the nail on the head, how I felt about the images, the Nokton produced.

 

Been playing with the formula for focal length. Rounded things off to "about" for the post.

 

A typical focus shift for a 5cm F1.5 Sonnar is ~0.05mm, stopping down from F1.5 to F4. That amount of focus shift will produce ~50mm back focus at 1meter. Increasing the focal length about 0.15mm (from 51.6mm to 51.75mm) should compensate for the shift. Does that sound reasonable?

 

Isn't the actual focal length of the lens quoted to be 51.7mm?

It seems, Miyazaki san took exactly this into consideration ;-)

It looks, like he has been up to produce a Super Sonnar - hehe

 

I can't wait to get one of these in my hands!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[brianv]

 

Isn't the actual focal length of the lens quoted to be 51.7mm?

It seems, Miyazaki san took exactly this into consideration ;-)

It looks, like he has been up to produce a Super Sonnar - hehe

 

I can't wait to get one of these in my hands!

 

That's what I'm thinking, the movement of the rear module allows ~0.1mm (or so) to correct focus shift, whatever it is labeled.

 

reading Neblette, and my simplistic mental image: Coma is related to light rays taking asymmetric paths through the optics. The Sonnar is an asymmetric design, so not too much of a stretch to think that coma would be worse in a Sonnar than a Planar. Focus Shift is caused by rays passing through the center of the optics not coming into focus at the same plane as those at the edges. So Stopping down cuts out the rays at the edges, and "best focus" appears to shift. This essentially moves the back-focus, which means the focal length of the lens is changing as per the formula for focal length. Moving the optics to change the focal length at this new aperture would essentially change it back to the same that it was at maximum aperture. SO: if the movement is to minimize Coma, it might not be enough to compensate for focus shift across all apertures, but it should be helpful. I'll experiment with a J-3.

[wlaidlaw]

Menos,

 

If I wanted another lens which drew like a vintage lens and given the number of vintage lenses I already have, I really don't need another, then my choice for such a lens would be the ZM 50/1.5 Sonnar. Then at least you would know exactly what you were getting. Given the Perar issues, which is a simple and basic lens, I seriously doubt the ability of this tiny company to produce a lens of far more complexity and with much higher accuracy of assembly requirements, to a satisfactory level of consistency. I hope for the sake of the people who have already paid the deposit that I am wrong but I bet I will not be.

 

I am hoping that the secret new ZM lens will be a 50/1.1 or 50/1 and if it is, I will buy that. My main fast 50 lens at the moment is a 1954 vintage 50/1.5 Opton Sonnar, which is a lovely lens but has a bit too much field curvature and is very slow to focus with a very long throw. I had a 50/1.4 ASPH Lux and hated it. Apart from the fact the focus was stiff enough and the tab sharp enough to cut my fingers, I disliked the over sharpened/hard edged appearance of the images on an M8 or 9 to my eyes and the bokeh was not very nice either, so I am sympathetic to the idea of a lens, which draws differently, I just don't think this 50/1.13 will be it.

 

Wilson