Selecting one Elmar of three [21,24,28]

[tomasis7]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

hello

 

Im a bit in dilemma choosing the single wide angle lens. In ideal world Id buy all Elmars to try out and sell the two but I cannot do it.

 

My former dream lens kit was 21-28-50-90. I feel it is too much hassle to make use out the kit so I decided to limit two lenses and two bodies. To complement 50mm Summarit, I look for a compact Wide Angle lens with classical look.

 

Currently I own Super Angulon 3.4 and was planning to purchase Elmar 2.8 Asph 28mm. Now Im not sure because 24 3.8 Elmar looks interesting as well.

 

Anybody has tried out all three Elmars ancd can comment about handling, fingerprint? Sharpness is not important since all three are sharp enough and I prefer to use without hood much as possible. I fit cameras in my pockets

[wattsy]

To complement 50mm Summarit, I look for a compact Wide Angle lens with classical look.

 

If you are very keen for a "classical" look I'm not sure any of the current wide angle lenses will fit that bill. They are all great lenses but do have a tendency towards brutal sharpness and very high contrast. You might want to consider the recently discontinued 24 Elmarit ASPH – which is a stunningly capable lens with, arguably, more of the "classical" look than the 24/F3.8 Elmar – or the 28 Summicron ASPH. For a genuinely more classical look I think you need to look for lenses from the 1970s – the earlier versions of the 28 Elmarit, etc. – or explore the Voigtländer range.

[tomasis7]

I think the bigger reason for me to upgrade the line of lenses is smaller size and better handling. It means better ergonomic design of newer products.

 

I can live with high sharpness and contrast because I always sharpen and increase contrast in post processing. I know using word "classical" may be deceiving and it leaves room for different interpretation.

 

For me it means strong fingerprint, a personality like Super Angulon. I read that some think that 24 Elmar 3.8 is something special. I dont know if that makes sense.

 

My latest lens is from 1988, so I guess that it is time to try out new modern signature of newer lenses and see if I like.

[tobey bilek]

M8 or M9 full frame-makes a difference.

 

For a single wide for M9 I would get the 28 ASPH or a 35 2.0 ASPH. People really like the 28 2.0 for not being too modern. The 28 2.8 ASPH will be brittle sharp contrasty rendering in comparison.

 

A 35 for me is the ideal wide focal for full frame or film. 21/28-35 perfect three lens wide kit.

35/24 much more practical and what I buy if the manufacturer has a good 24 in the line. of course Leica does, so does Nikon and that is my Nikon set.

 

I have an M8 with no 24 left from film days as there was none when I bought 21/28/35 in 1983. The 28 from film does not do well in the corners on the M8 and I expect will be totally unsatisfactory on M9 when that arrives. I have considered a used 24 2.8. That will be a 32mm equivalent on the M8 and server as a wide 24 on the M9. That may be my solution. My 35 is normal on the M8, paired with a 24 and nice wide "set" for the M9. The 24 3.8 will probably do as well. I dislike large fast lenses.

[lct]

I own both Elmarit 28/2.8 asph and Elmar 24/3.8 asph. Both superb lenses with modern fingerprint as Wattsy wrote above. So beware of blown highlights if you shoot digital. The Elmarit 28 is significantly smaller. Has your M body 24mm frame lines BTW?

[lars_bergquist]

Your sensor format (M8 or M9) is of course key to the whole question. But assuming M9, I see that you already have experience of the 21mm length. So it might be a good idea to build your kit from this 'cornerstone'. The next 'stone' in this case could be a 35mm lens. This is of course the modern 'standard lens' and in my case, the lens that I use for at least 75% of all my photography. 50mm would mean a doubling of the diagonal image angle, but the leap would be too long for me.

 

My own active lens kit consists of a 21mm Super-Elmar, 35mm Summilux ASPH v.2, 50mm Summilux ASPH, 90mm Elmarit-M and 135mm Apo-Telyt. Some people would say that the 50mm is superfluous, but the 50 and 35mm lenses are so different that keeping and even carrying both – simultaneously! – is completely rational.

 

A three-lens kit built from the 21mm length might be 21mm + 28mm + 50mm, but personally, I have little use for 28mm. It is neither fish nor fowl. It does take in the whole Board of Directors in one shot, but how many boards of directors are there in your life?

 

The old man from the Age of the Box Camera

[Paul J]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

All depending on your taste and style I find I have little use for anything wider than 24. 28 is Ideal for me personally.

 

I think the only way forward is the chose the one you you will use the most. I thikn you already will know this. And just plan to get the rest later!

 

[glenerrolrd]

You need to make some assumptions to answer these questions. If you practice classical Leica RF photography ...travel,street,available light ....and you use two bodies at the same time .........you have plenty of options . Your initial kit 21/28/50/90 is my ideal for two bodies. (assume you are M9 and FF).

 

If you keep you 21/3.4 and the 50/1.5 ...you will like the 28/2 best . It has a somewhat lower level of contrast while maintaining strong resolution of fine detail (compared to the 24/3.8 for example ). It has good speed ..is small and handles well without the hood . The images will blend well in a collection of images taken with the 21 and the 50.

 

The 24 s both the 2.8 and the newer 3.8 both have strong image contrast ..great lenses but they will create images that look different than your 21 and 50 . The newer 28 and 35 asph will also render images that are much different than your 21 and 50.

 

You could also go with a 35/2 sum micron V4 which has a character closer to the 21/50 and a beautiful rendering of the out of focus areas.

 

My pick is the 28/2 asph ..the 28 on one body and the 50 on the other is a nice working kit . I would try to hold on to the 21 SA if you can afford it .

[IWC Doppel]

If I were you I'd buy the pre aspheric 28mm Elmarit as it has more classical rendering than the Summicron, which is stunning in a different way. I do love the rendering of the 24 Elmarit-M ASPH, more classic than today's 24. From my perspective the 24 and 28 are notably different in perspective and image capture

 

A picture below of the 24 Emarit ASPH at f2.8

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tomasis7]

wow what great replies!

 

but it puts me deeper in the dilemma, lol

 

to give deeper undertanding about my dilemma, I will tell about my setup and workflow.

 

I happen to be die hard 50mm shooter and have continued with 50mm as main lens since from start over ten years. I plan to go for full format (FF) when I get rid of my Epson RD-1 and continue with film (M3 body) and add eventual used Monochrome in future. For now I also going to replace another m-body M4 with M3, so it will be two bodies M3 (its good to have backup) I wear glasses, so it is not possible even with such VF of M4 with eventual 28mm. I get accustomed with zone focussing with SA on Rd1 and M3. Thats why tab focusing comes out as useful feature. Compact lenses as SA make a lot sense for me with not so big pockets of any jacket I wear. I never wear bag or anything.

 

Thats why Summarit 2.5 comes out as replacement for my current 50mm Cron 3rd which I love very much. Erwin Putz says that Summarit has look of 35mm Cron 2nd. I dont know what to expect of Summarit when I get this some day . But for leica lenses, I own SA 3.4, 35 Lux preAsph, 50'Cron 3rd, 90'Cron 3rd E55. Other brands are 90 Hexanon 2.8, 25 CV and a bunch of Russian lenses.

 

When Monochrome arrived, I looked on Sobols pictures made with 50 APO, I thought it is not bad. It didnt bother much when Monochrome could deliver extra punch on his pictures, also adding dynamic range (?). I think Leica did something to give workable setup with newest lenses even at harshest conditions. I used to underexposed 1-2 stops on Rd1 since I always crave for grain. For Monochrome and iso 10 000 and underexposed 2 stops, it gives room to play around digital weakness as highlights. A least for me and my style.

 

Now back to the original topic for wide angle lenses. Going for slow lenses , at the same time, very compact, 3cm at length is even better. If I go for SA 21, Summait 50 2.5, Elmarit 28 Asph, I guess I get different fingerprints on the images I think it is something I have to experiment for modern fingerprint and think about it. I already love the look produced by 50'Cron 3rd. But Im not sure how three above mentioned lenses will compare with the Cron.

 

As for 24mm lenses and going for 2 lenses and bodies, I need to simplify the setup because I memorize the way to see things by limiting frames mentally. So I go for wide style shooting when I take out one body and lens (I always take out only single lens kit, not two) Oddly, for me it doesnt make any difference when I take shoot with 21 or 28mm. For me wide is wide. 35Lux pre asph which I have is called as normal lens and I dont want use it for the reason that it may diminish my mental frames that I got with 50mm. I mean that by long time using the 50mm, it got accurate enough that I almost never take a step back or forth and I most often nail on the same place if it does make any sense. I use eyes 99,9% of time

 

Thats why I see 24mm as excuse to replace both 21/28 and see it as a wide lens. But I think it is good advice to hold on SA 3.4 and test other alternatives. As I guess, I have to go try all three lenses at the end if I like moden lenses enough.

 

I hope I dont wrote much off-topic here.

[akiralx]

Thats why Summarit 2.5 comes out as replacement for my current 50mm Cron 3rd which I love very much. Erwin Putz says that Summarit has look of 35mm Cron 2nd. I dont know what to expect of Summarit when I get this some day . But for leica lenses, I own SA 3.4, 35 Lux preAsph, 50'Cron 3rd, 90'Cron 3rd E55. Other brands are 90 Hexanon 2.8, 25 CV and a bunch of Russian lenses.

 

I have not shot that 50mm Summicron (my version had a focus ring tab, so v4?), but as an owner of all four Summarits I would expect the 50mm (a very good lens) to have a much more modern look in terms of contrast and sharpness.

[tomasis7]

is not that so that All latest Elmars have same fingerprints? only focal lenght that makes difference?

 

I remember that I saw 24 Summilix shot on film, I could not discern that it was of modern generation. Odd feeling.

 

Akiralx, yeah its 4th version that is very similar to 3rd except slight contrast bump. Your comment on Cron comparison to Summarit? If I compare my Cron to other my lenses, I feel that this one is most modern, renders microcontrast quite visible tha the texture pops out for example of ones face. That puzzles me that Erwin Putz says that Summarit has look of 35 Cron 2nd, I have Lux preAsph that is similar to one, for my opinion tha the lens renders more in needle, sharp stickpoint aka Sonnar style thus making the texture more smooth. I dont own Tele Elmait M 90mm but it renders more texure aka Cron 50 compared to my 90Cron 3rd. but at less difference compared to 35lux Preasph vs 50cron. Then again according to Putz, 90 Summarit is similar to 90Cron 3rd.

[tomasis7]

IWC Doppel, I like quite of Elmar 24 shot. Similar to modern Angulon. What resembles Elmar 24 for other lenses at any FL in your opinion?

[menos I M6]

I think the bigger reason for me to upgrade the line of lenses is smaller size and better handling. It means better ergonomic design of newer products.

 

I can live with high sharpness and contrast because I always sharpen and increase contrast in post processing. I know using word "classical" may be deceiving and it leaves room for different interpretation.

 

For me it means strong fingerprint, a personality like Super Angulon. I read that some think that 24 Elmar 3.8 is something special. I dont know if that makes sense.

 

My latest lens is from 1988, so I guess that it is time to try out new modern signature of newer lenses and see if I like.

 

If you really like your Super Angulon, stay away from the newest Super Elmars.

The issue is, that you can't take away sharpness and contrast.

You have so much less latitude in shadow and high light detail.

The focus feel of the new lenses is tuned differently and frankly, in opinion NOT towards better usability (they are overall stiffer, not as smooth and silky, as older lenses).

 

If you didn't try a 28 Summicron yet, now is the time to do so - it is for me THE nicest balance between modern and classic with it's natural light fall off, beautiful balance in contrast and still very sharp, high detail.

 

If I want to go even a step further, I use other (older and non ASPH lenses).

My 21 Super Elmar, as impressive a technical feat, it is, is collecting dust in a drawer, as it is of no use to me - a total failure in decision making on my side.

 

I personally know people, who have a strong fetish for pixels and obsess in disassembling image data on the deepest level - they love the new lenses.

 

And a Super Angulon still remains high on my wish list …

[IWC Doppel]

IWC Doppel, I like quite of Elmar 24 shot. Similar to modern Angulon. What resembles Elmar 24 for other lenses at any FL in your opinion?

 

Crikey a challenging question

 

I'll have a think......

[RobertJRB]

IWC Doppel, I like quite of Elmar 24 shot. Similar to modern Angulon. What resembles Elmar 24 for other lenses at any FL in your opinion?

 

Be aware, the shot is made with the now discontinued 24 elmarit f/2.8, not the 24 elmar f/3.8.

[IWC Doppel]

In have had a think and the best way of answering the question for me.

 

Well I can only really add any comparisons to lenses that I have owned or still own and every lens is different so that does make life more difficult. I would say the 24 is very sharp, but with a mid tonality more like a lower contrast lens than it is. It has a stunning ability to recreate image depth and it draws you in to the picture, resolution and detail is top draw, but the rendering is more classic than the current lenses.

 

The most similar in my limited experience for rendering :

 

35 Aspherical ASPH, a little more 'style' to it than the 24, but can work closely together and look right with similar digital processing

 

90 Elmarit-M, this could possibly be a little more of a blend of the 50 Elmar-M and the 24 Elmarit-M with the contrast and renderings style.

 

The 21 Elmarit-M ASPH is similar but a little less 3D and a little less fine detail and mid tone, it is a little 'bigger brush' with it's style.

 

I'd look at lenses designed from the mid 70's to the late 90's as your starting era. For me they seem to provide as much sharpness as anyone needs or wants but retain some of the softness, classic rendering style of earlier glass, plus this may be a limited experience comment they seem to have an interest and style stopped down that modern lenses don't seem to.

 

I would spend some time on Flickr looking at images posted by different lenses

[lars_bergquist]

Please forgive my rudeness, born no doubt of my proletarian and peasant origins, but to my ears, discussions of the fine points of rendering of current Leica M lenses sound like outright mysticism, or brutally expressed, mumbo-jumbo.

 

A primitive like me wants the lens to have high definition. The bokeh should also be fine, i.e. introducing as few and unobtrusive artifacts as possible. Current Leica M lenses answer brilliantly to these demands. So I am very satisfied with those that I own. The subtleties some people are discussing are, if not entirely imaginary, so fine that they are irrelevant to hand-held action shooting – which is what a Leica is made for.

 

Go take some pictures instead.

 

The old man from the Pleistocene Age

[IWC Doppel]

Indeed take some pictures, that is the point

 

Lenses do have different fingerprints if the question is regarding this is that so bad ?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaques]

what ever is the point of saying 'go and take pictures'? I assume people post on this forum when they are not taking pictures... and that this forum would not exist at all if everyone just took pictures...

 

for what it worth I really like my pre-asph V2 Leica 28mm Elmarit sharp enough for me stopped down and great depth to the images wide open- very well made solid lens as well:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!