isp056 Posted July 27, 2012 Share #1 Posted July 27, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Paid £6650 by debit card last september for the noctilux 0.95. Chargeback and section 75 all are not allowed. Anyone got any suggestions for reducing the lost? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 Hi isp056, Take a look here Lost £6650, just because Jacobs Digital entered administration?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted July 27, 2012 Share #2 Posted July 27, 2012 Register with the administrators. Regards, Bill Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 27, 2012 Share #3 Posted July 27, 2012 Ouch. As Bill says, register with the Administrators. Unfortunately, in the UK, your consumer rights are not the same if you pay by Debit Card compared to Credit Card. I think you will become an unsecured creditor which means, for example, HMRC will stand in front of you. Much depends on how deeply Jacobs were in the financial do-dos when they went down. Hopefully, you will recover some of your money. I can't believe Jacobs charged the full amount against your card nearly a year ago for an item whic was not available. Deposit yes, full price sounds more like fraud. Didn't any alarm bells ring? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 28, 2012 Share #4 Posted July 28, 2012 A few questions and points.... Why did you pay in full for an item so long ago? Deposits should be held in a client account and be protected, that's what a reputable company would do. Do you have a Visa debit card? They offer similar protection to credit cards. But.... This is why one should use credit and not debit cards - for protection against non receipt etc. Speak to the administrators about the client account. If all else fails I wouldn't expect to get anything back as an unsecured creditor I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted July 28, 2012 Share #5 Posted July 28, 2012 Visa has changed their rules and if you paid using a VISA Debit you should be protected. Do not let you bank tell you that you are not covered. There has been a lot of information regarding this matter on the Money Box (Radio 4) programme. It seems that people in the call centres of some of the banks are giving out the wrong information and if you fight hard enough you should get you money back via the card issuer. You will likely as not get nothing via the administrator. I have to say why on earth would you pay a full deposit? Frankly if anyone asked me to pay in full in advance, alarm bells would start ringing, a 10% deposit is reasonable to show that you are not a tyre kicker, any more than that I would look for another dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted July 28, 2012 Share #6 Posted July 28, 2012 My local dealer asks for full payment if you want to go on their 'serious' waiting list, and this is why I have gone elsewhere. As Jacobs were an official dealer and Leica UK presumably knew about this practice, it may be worth contacting them as they can presumably tie you to Jacobs order with them, and may be sympathetic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted July 28, 2012 Share #7 Posted July 28, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The increasingly common practice of taking full payment for goods not in stock with a vague incentive that the buyer will be moved along the queue should be outlawed, imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2012 Share #8 Posted July 28, 2012 It might just work if you lodge a fraud complaint. After all they took your money knowing full well they could not deliver within a reasonable span of time. It won't get you your money back, but it might hamper the administrator, who may wish to offer you an incentive to withdraw the complaint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 28, 2012 Share #9 Posted July 28, 2012 I do hope you manage a refund, good luck I agree wholeheartedly with the concept of not paying full for a place in the Que. I was shocked when the prospect of being charged in full with no delivery date and a possible wait of 6m+ Putting significant cash sums into a sellers account before he has seen sight of a delivery let alone an invoice from Leica is simply wrong. I am unsure if this meets with FSA regulations tbh. I like the large internet dealer on the coast and do buy items they have in stock, but I won't buy Leica lenses from them out of principle (what do they care, they can't get enough to supply demand which is better than supplying anyway from a cash and profit perspective even with marginal interest rates) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 28, 2012 Share #10 Posted July 28, 2012 It might just work if you lodge a fraud complaint. It won't get you your money back, but it might hamper the administrator, who may wish to offer you an incentive to withdraw the complaint. Especially as you were misled as it is clear that they looked for your payment as cash to support creditor payment no doubt. I would also explore client account money's and FSA regulations. They were taking a sum with no exchange so by definition they are holding your money and not enacting the start of a sale process I suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted July 28, 2012 Share #11 Posted July 28, 2012 It might just work if you lodge a fraud complaint. It won't get you your money back, but it might hamper the administrator, who may wish to offer you an incentive to withdraw the complaint. Nonsense. This is not fraud and is not illegal practice. Whether it should be classified as such is questionable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 28, 2012 Share #12 Posted July 28, 2012 Nonsense. This is not fraud and is not illegal practice. Whether it should be classified as such is questionable. I wonder how Jacob's pricing policy on Leica was driven by the need for cash ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 28, 2012 Share #13 Posted July 28, 2012 Nonsense. This is not fraud and is not illegal practice. Whether it should be classified as such is questionable. You very likely know the law better than I do, but selling something one cannot deliver within a reasonable, more or less fixed period of time and taking full payment does not appear honest practice to me. I wonder how many dealers are taken hefty sums for the M10 which hasn't even been announced yet. My dealer flat out refused a deposit for the Monochrom. As he has in the past for the M8 and another -UK- dealer for the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reading Posted July 28, 2012 Share #14 Posted July 28, 2012 In the UK trading whilst knowingly insolvent is called "Wrongful Trading" if you can prove it, I believe you can go after the directors personally. You will not be able to prove it. Go the VISA refund route. I paid for my goods with a debit card, would I be protected? Anyone who made their purchase with a Visa debit card is covered by its Chargeback scheme, which offers similar protection to section 75. To make a claim customers must contact their card issuer, which then contacts the company's payment-processing bank to reclaim the money. This means that even if a company goes into liquidation it is possible to reclaim money, as the claim is made against a bank not the company. My credit or debit card company is refusing to refund me Sometimes card issuers misunderstand the section 75 and Chargeback rules and refuse a claim. Anyone in this situation should make sure they know their rights and argue their case. If all else fails contact the Financial Ombudsman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2012 Share #15 Posted July 28, 2012 The increasingly common practice of taking full payment for goods not in stock with a vague incentive that the buyer will be moved along the queue should be outlawed, imo. Surely common sence should kick in. As a nation have we become so silly that when a dealer asks for 100% up front we have not got the basic common sence to go to a dealer who requires only 10 / 20% . More money than sense is the saying that comes to mind. BrianP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted July 28, 2012 Share #16 Posted July 28, 2012 Surely common sence should kick in. As a nation have we become so silly that when a dealer asks for 100% up front we have not got the basic common sence to go to a dealer who requires only 10 / 20% . More money than sense is the saying that comes to mind.BrianP I totally agree, but said Dealer on South Coast clearly has enough customers in this category to be curt with those of us not comfortable with the arrangement. Contrast this with a very highly regarded Dealer in the north who is not taking deposits on the Monochrom, and who one senses will manage the order list chronologically - just how it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted July 28, 2012 Share #17 Posted July 28, 2012 Okay, Mod's can give me a hard time. But..... good though they are I will not pay Robert White in full for anything on back order with no delivery date. Given smaller dealers will still get stock your local dealer is more likely to supply than a large outlet. Indeed a good friend decided he wanted a 35 Summilux ASPH.FLE and a well regarded London dealer supplied in a matter of weeks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 28, 2012 Share #18 Posted July 28, 2012 Okay, Mod's can give me a hard time. But..... good though they are I will not pay Robert White in full for anything on back order with no delivery date. My local Leica dealer has never asked for a deposit or full payment in advance for Leica lenses and bodies because they know they can sell them anyway, even if I backed out. It would be very unusual to find one of the large retailers like WEX or Park taking money in advance on pre-orders or out of stock items for the same reason. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 28, 2012 Share #19 Posted July 28, 2012 Is there not a claim limit of 120 days beginning the day you became aware of the seller's non-performance ? That's with Visa and Master Card who do, now, support debit cards. I will have nothing to do with American Express, so I know nothing of their support. Given that Jacobs just went under, perhaps there is hope. Act soon! And don't believe what the bank tells you. Work you claim past the clerks, higher up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted July 28, 2012 Share #20 Posted July 28, 2012 What a heart-stopping experience! I am sorry to read your story. Clearly there are lessons here. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, I would not proceed to place an order if it was conditional that I pay in full up front. A deposit, possibly, but only if I had an urgent need and assured delivery times. I would work with all haste on the Visa refund route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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