01af Posted July 22, 2012 Share #21 Â Posted July 22, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) So I've finally hit that wall, after being brought up on film [...]. I'm a university student so I'm also at that stage where I'm worrying about jobs and what I'm going to do with my life and due to that I've hit a crossroad. [...] I studied [photography] at college and now I'm studying it at university. [...] So after mulling over the uncertainty of my future I've come to the stage where I'm starting to question film, as much as I love and enjoy it, is it really worth carrying on? Huh!? Â I cannot believe it. A person who is deeply into photography and has studied it at college and currently is studying at university really actually seriously is asking this question on an Internet forum? Huh? HUH!? Â Come on! This must be a troll! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Hi 01af, Take a look here Digital/Film/Career conundrum. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted July 22, 2012 Share #22  Posted July 22, 2012 It's film I love and its surrealism that drives me, but is that going to get me a job?  Of course its not, get your head out of the clouds.  You need to do something when you leave Uni. High ambitions come second to earning a living, and earning a living is a terrific way to focus your attention on what you can/can't do, and what direction to go in. But its no good at all thinking about becoming a fully formed artist without either a pot of money, and even that doesn't help some people, or the hard experience of work and the knowledge it gives about yourself.  In my college course we didn't spend one second preparing for a commercial/artistic life in photography in preparation for when we left, but I think everybody knew it wouldn't be handed to them on a plate. True, we didn't have a dichotomy about film vs digtal to worry about, but equally we knew if we would need a 35mm camera or a 4x5 to survive and move onwards and upwards.  So buy a digital camera, get on the programme, and worry about artistic integrity when you have the luxury to do so. You will suceed in selling your art if you have the talent and ambition, but nobody is going to pay you to learn  Steve (B.A. Fine Art, Photography) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share #23  Posted July 22, 2012 Huh!? I cannot believe it. A person who is deeply into photography and has studied it at college and currently is studying at university really actually seriously is asking this question on an Internet forum? Huh? HUH!?  Come on! This must be a troll!  Not too sure what you're getting at here? Actually I don't understand what you're trying to imply at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnfell Posted July 22, 2012 Share #24 Â Posted July 22, 2012 I have made my living as a photojournalist for about 10 years now since my degree. In order to figure out wether its possible to make a living shooting film or not, you have to look at HOW you make your money in photography. Â I am afraid digital is the de-facto standard. For the last 5-10 years digital has been good enough for most publishers, and cheap digital point and shoots plus camera phones has completely taken over the amateur market. This means people expect you to shoot digital, and you will have to convince each and every customer that you shooting film has some sort of benefit. Otherwise its all drawbacks as far as the customer is concerned. This includes both commercial, editorial, private customers etc. I would even include weddings and portraits here because people have come to expect to be able to look at least at some of the pictures relatively quickly after the fact. Again, if you choose to do film, you are going to go through the entire rationale with them. Â The only area where I can see an advantage shooting film is print sales. And even there it is getting harder and harder to convince people to pay more or choose your prints because you use film. Your content and/or your name is what sells the print. Â Being newly educated, I would say it is paramount not to splurge in equipment. (I did, and it didn't improve my photography). Your money needs to go towards building a strong portfolio. And here film -might- be a option, since you are working for yourself. Building a strong portfolio means shooting A LOT. Possibly tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of frames. Are you able to carry that cost with film and processing? Â Remember the only difference between a good photographer and a mediocre one is the size of the recycle bin. (or in the digital age the size of your external hard drive :-) ) Â Photography as a business is pretty scary right now, with more and more people wanting to be photographers and less and less publications wanting to pay good money for good work. And while prices for prints are on their way up, you need to make a name for yourself before you can command enough money to make a living. Â So my advice is the same as everyone else's - digital brings home the bacon, but never stop doing your own projects on the side. Those are the ones which make your name, which may eventually one day be known and trusted enough so that you can get paid to do exactly what you want. Â Until then - work work work and never rest on your education laurels. Â Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share #25 Â Posted July 22, 2012 Of course its not, get your head out of the clouds. Â Ah I'm a dreamer not a realist! Yeah I guess my sudden panic was due the fact that I may have wasted a good couple of years on film when from a career point of view it wouldn't really have got me very far (I say wasted but the important parts are transferable and I'm still going to carry on in my spare time) Digital camera shall be purchased first thing tomorrow! Thank you for your help Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share #26 Â Posted July 22, 2012 Being newly educated, I would say it is paramount not to splurge in equipment. (I did, and it didn't improve my photography). Your money needs to go towards building a strong portfolio. Â This is what I was unsure of, if I came out shooting on something mid range am I going to have a disadvantage over the guys with the better cameras? I was looking at a Nikon D7000, would that be good enough? Â Thank you very much for the advice, I'd like to think maybe someday I'll be selling my personal film work, at least it's something to keep me motivated and driven! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted July 23, 2012 Share #27 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) IMO, all this talk of what camera, digital, or film, unspecific paths of photography, and so on are incidentals that will become increasingly irrelevant to a paying career path in photography. Â What will be relevant is being business savvy, and being knowledgable in some, if not many, areas besides photography. Â I have a friend who is primarily an automotive writer, and is also a terrific photographer when he is shooting what he is writing about. It is because he knows what he his shooting and why. He does very well, and is published on a regular basis, Â I was an advertising art director and developed ideas for photographs, then hired others to actually shoot it. Eventually, I started shooting the ideas myself once my photographic skills were up to the ideas. Now I have a number of regular clients and I do everything for them from writing, to photography, to ad design, even TV commercials ... but photography isn't the aim, it is to make effective ads which I know how to do. Photography is a good paying part of that. Â One of my best friends is a master photographer ... he struggled until he landed a marketing position with a major international company developing ideas to build their business ... which he shoots. Â IMO, to some good degree this will become the path in the future and a barrier to the general public with their increasingly capable cameras and use of them. Photographic expertise applied to expertise in other things ... ideas that are expressed using photographic communication. Â To add to this ... Â I have shot weddings for almost 20 years, it has become extremely difficult to make a living at it. So I looked to expand into more Portrait work ... same problem, everyone and their dog Spot are doing it, and many consumers thing think can do it themselves (and some can). I studied the whole market and decided to specialize in fitness portraits but with a twist ... I shoot them as formal concept work using sophisticated studio lighting techniques ... something that amateurs are neither equipped to do, nor have a clue how to do. Lighting makes more difference than any camera on the planet. That "vanity centric" conceptual business has skyrocketed because I took the time to become expert in the category, and solicited aid and information from personal trainers. Â The point is it isn't photography for the sake of it alone, it is in the service of something else. These days the more expert you are at that something else, the more paying photographic work you can get. Â -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_d Posted July 23, 2012 Share #28 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Photography is a viable career. More images are being used today than in any time in history. The key is to be good and to specialize. More important than your photography skills is your business skills, sales skills, and your entrepreneurial spirit. Many photographers fail because of poor business/sales skills, something photographers don't learn in art school. A degree in photography will teach you how to make a product, business/sales skills will make you the money from what you create. Most photographers don't get jobs as a full time employee, they start their own business and work freelance. Learning how to sell yourself will help you succeed. Â That being said, their are many photographers struggling these days because of the economy and because digital has changed our industry. It is not just photographers that are struggling, there are many educated people that are out of work in this economy to include teachers, lawyers, and engineers. Eventually the economy will pick up and the business savy photographers will have figured out a new business model that works in the digital age. Follow your dream or you will regret that you didn't. If it is truley your passion, you will figure out how to make a living at it. Â As far as a camera, the Nikon D7000 is an adequate tool. I have never had a client hire me because of the camera or lens that I use. You get hired because they like you, they like your work, and they have confidence in you to get the job done. Sadly, digital is a must in the business of photography today but keep shooting film for your personal work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 23, 2012 Share #29 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Find out what the people who will buy your photographs want. No point in trying to make a living shooting film if they want digital. Unless you're a 'name' it's highly likely that they will call the shots even if it's you taking them (apologies for the cheesy pun). Â You need to understand the difference between shooting for yourself and shooting for other people. Â Remember that taking photographs is only a small part of being a photographer. You need to market yourself and know how to run a business. Then you need to market yourself some more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 23, 2012 Share #30  Posted July 23, 2012 Ah I'm a dreamer not a realist! Yeah I guess my sudden panic was due the fact that I may have wasted a good couple of years on film when from a career point of view it wouldn't really have got me very far (I say wasted but the important parts are transferable and I'm still going to carry on in my spare time)Digital camera shall be purchased first thing tomorrow! Thank you for your help  I didn't mean to sound harsh but you are right, photography is photography, making an image on film is not wasted effort. Art is work, as hard as any work if you are driven to do it because you give things up. And finding that line where you can balance a commercial job with your own work is very fine judgement, but it allows you to jump one way or another, either at a moments notice, like a day off to do your own work, or the full career move.  Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 23, 2012 Share #31 Â Posted July 23, 2012 I'm a little confused about the OP's question - don't most/all degree courses stipulate that the student must have a DSLR camera? I know they teach film use too, but they seem to concentrate on digital workflow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share #32 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Not here, I'm at the Manchester school of art and we have stores where all digital equipment can be borrowed but if I wanted to I could spend my entire time doing film without question. It seems to be quite a big thing here that students do a lot of work with film, the majority if not all of our workshops are film based. It was a massive disadvantage on interviews if you turned up with a fully digital portfolio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted July 23, 2012 Share #33 Â Posted July 23, 2012 If so Lee, then how do your instructors expect you to make a living once you are qualified? Ask them and tell us. We all might learn something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 23, 2012 Share #34 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Not here, I'm at the Manchester school of art and we have stores where all digital equipment can be borrowed but if I wanted to I could spend my entire time doing film without question. It seems to be quite a big thing here that students do a lot of work with film, the majority if not all of our workshops are film based. It was a massive disadvantage on interviews if you turned up with a fully digital portfolio. I am frankly baffled by much that I read about photographic education these days. I have heard of some facilities setting up new darkrooms recently. I've no problem with this if the aim is to produce someone with an interest in and knowledge of older processes but digital is mainstream (and no I'm not starting a debate - it is an unassailable fact) and if the aim is to produce graduates with the best background when it comes to working then film is, for the vast, vast majority of students, an irrelevant luxury in the real world. IMHO one of the wonders of digital is just how much faster it enables photographers to learn about technique - and then they can concentrate on produce image which is far more important. Most dSLRs are very capable these days, the model is somewhat irrelevant if you simply want a tool to start using. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 23, 2012 Share #35  Posted July 23, 2012 From their website....have you not sought some advice from your tutors? Have you not sought some advice from the partners the Uni works with on these placements? That would seem a better way to go.  Much as I love film myself, I find it hard to believe that a degree course isn't mostly geared towards digital workflows, given the likely requirement of most photographic related jobs today.  Placements  There will be opportunities to undertake live briefs with companies, for example the Fuji Film competition Awards, and Epson awards. You will also be able to undertake professional research project work, for example, with freelance design companies and photographers, museum administration and picture editing. Graduates  90%* of art, design and architecture graduates go straight into employment and/or further study. Possible career options may include photographers, freelance curators, picture editors, exhibition assistants, exhibiting artists, teachers and to study at postgraduate level. Recent graduates have gained employment as photographers in education, design, television and theatre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 23, 2012 Share #36 Â Posted July 23, 2012 Personally I think it's a good idea to start with film so you understand the fundamentals of exposure and previsualisation and get in good habits getting things right in camera. I think every course should at least start this way. Don't be so worried about this if you understand film, the transition to digital is not hard, only an investment in time learning post processing. Â As for the business side of things who cares you pick that up as you go. All you need do is set your self on a path that people want and need your photos. The best thing you can do after study is contact a select group of photographers you like and aspire to (research them) and get assisting work. You set your technical foundations in college but will learn most assisting successful photographer you aspire to. I found I needed to unlearn what I learned at college for the real world and for assisting but it did provide the environment to immerse yourself in the craft at a comfortable level and gain enough confidence to step forward and up. That is the most important thing I feel. Â In the beginning being a photographer is not about business. If you can't learn to take photos that stand out and say something you will only end up as one of the masses. If you're driven and hungry you will find a way. Like I said you will always get people that tell you it's too hard, being generally discouraging or negative but just move on, don't listen to them. Any profession has those who achieve and those who fail. Â This has at least worked for me and I'm living what I consider to be my dream. It is a roller coaster, sure and not always easy, but it doesn't feel like work to me and I have more work than I have time for working pretty much 20/7. Only last thing for me to say is you will get more work from your personal work, your personal projects, personal vision than what you will from another commercial job. Take pictures people want to be associated with and they will find you (You will also need to look for them too!). Doing commercial work to get commercial work is a one way street that has far less potential. Â What kind of photography do you want to do? Where in the world are you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 23, 2012 Share #37 Â Posted July 23, 2012 I think there may be some misunderstanding about what an arts course is. An Arts course teaches you about art and the fulfillment of personal potential in that field, not commercial photography, how to light a wedding shoot, or how to send an invoice. Â Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share #38 Â Posted July 23, 2012 We are given a lot of opportunity to meet with outside companies obviously linked to the university that offer us help on the business side. I would however definitely say within the university everything is art driven and film is definitely seen to have more merit. If it got me a job there is no doubt about it I would definitely stick to film but as much as I love it I agree, it does seem quite strange that it's not forced upon me. Why does everyone think that is? What would someone do after graduating with a portfolio of art based photography such as conceptual and abstract work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 23, 2012 Share #39 Â Posted July 23, 2012 What would someone do after graduating with a portfolio of art based photography such as conceptual and abstract work? Well the vast majority would probably sign on....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeHoggard Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share #40 Â Posted July 23, 2012 If so Lee, then how do your instructors expect you to make a living once you are qualified? Ask them and tell us. We all might learn something. Â I'm currently home for the summer but I certainly will be doing. I can see how artistic skill could prevail over literal work in an arts school but it baffles me as to what they expect us to do after we graduate. Â Well the vast majority would probably sign on....... Â Sad but very true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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