Das Wesentliche. Does the phrase make sense?

[lct]

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Ha ha! He could have bet a full truck of ice creams wih no risk at all.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[luigi bertolotti]

Jaap is well informed and strictly coherent with the bet's terms... he knows he won't buy a M10... because IT won't be named this way....

[philipus]

Or indeed the M10 which is very likely to take R lenses

. . .

Alternative would be a Canon DSLR and adapter, but that would not rationalize my gear. I need to get out of the multiple- system as much as I can. It is getting to be too much to carry. I need some cross-platform solution between M and R.

. . .

75% are standard Safari shots anybody could have taken with any Canikon -and has done. . 25% are hopefully something more, and (although Canikon would have been (nearly)as good), have been inspired by my knowledge and habit of the Leica lenses.

. . .

Forget about the M10. It will add next to nothing to my photography for . . . I will keep the M9, get the MM, for the coming time explore the neglected (by me) universe of B&W travel and wildlife photography using my trusty Visoflex and get the Leica EVIL in due course without time pressure.

 

Two, later maybe three cameras, a number of favorite lenses, that will be all I need to fill at least a decade.

 

A good "ramble" Jaap though I think it is not very rambling: it is important to reason through one's decisions.

 

But either I don't understand what you wish to have or feel that you need or you must be bringing a whole lot more gear on your trips than I think you do.

 

Anyway, if restricting the amount of gear/getting out of multi-systems is of paramount concern and your main photography is wildlife, then your best shot (pun intended, because why not) is to sell all your M gear and get a Canon or Nikon and use your R lenses on that. Two systems in one and you get the Leica signature on the photos, too. Actually, based on your style of photography, it seems to me that you don't need the M system at all. I say this based on my own experience shooting EOS for 20 years in all sorts of situations. Lo and behold, a DSLR does very well as a street photography camera. But wait, so does almost any other camera too Add an X1, X2 X100 or something else small and light for your non-safari work.

 

Let's be honest, no one will be able to tell the difference between photos taken on a DSLR+R rig and photos taken on an M10 with R lenses, should that ever be possible "natively". Maybe you will feel better - and I accept that is an important part of any equipment-based activity - but that's just that.

 

No offence intended, I hope you understand that! But I believe it is best to be brutally honest about one's needs if one's going to ask the very difficult questions.

 

Grtz

Philip

[jaapv]

I hear you - but - have been there, done that. I sold all of my Canon gear - 10D, 1 D, lenses`, 17-40 L, 70-200L. 300/2.8L , 100-400L (what a horrible lens that was ) and some I even forgot I had, etc..as soon as I got the DMR. In the film days I started out on Visoflex and Telyts on my M3, soon replaced by R cameras and lenses. Call me a fool, but I was never without an M for people and landscape:). After forty years I am kinda married to the system. Too late for me to break the habit.

So yes - system mixing is an important consideration for me.

[Jamie Roberts]

I hear you - but - have been there, done that. {snipped}

 

If the 10d and 1d were the last Canons you used, then seriously Jaap, you've been somewhere else entirely, sorry.

 

And while the 300 2.8 is a very nice lens, I wouldn't consider the 17-40L or 70-200L good examples of what Canon is capable of producing. Not to mention the fact that R lenses on the latest Canons are astonishingly good

 

Anyway, the MM really won't make you a better photographer, except insofar as you will grow against the specific restrictions of the system.

 

But--and this is the big but for me--the restrictions aren't really necessary to change your vision, and will be downright frustrating in (IMO) many instances where film or a colour digicam would be better.

 

I do think the MM is a niche cam for specific purposes, namely having a MF-like street and event cam, which kind of makes not much sense to me, both aesthetically and artistically.

 

In other words, the constraints the camera will impose will not make you a better photographer, or even a better BW photographer; they will make you a better MM photographer--of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

 

If that's your goal, then let the GAS pass

 

And when the M10 shows up and they get it right: maybe with a Dalsa chip good to ISO 6400, and with improved bit depth, colour and DR, and with an improved rangefinder mechanism and LCD, and faster and better buffer, then we'll see if you can resist the urge to go back to colour.

 

I'm betting on the ice cream, personally

[jaapv]

I know they are not quite up-to-date And yes, that 300 was the best of the bunch.

 

But it won't be a Dalsa sensor and 6400 is in the ballpark but does not really interest me. After all, when light gets low my eyes switch to B&W as well.

The rangefinder mechanism will be the same and the LCD, maybe but again is of no interest to me. I shot the MM, worked with the files of the MM and had to choose, Two new Ms would be too much for me, and chose the MM over the projected M10. For long lenses and high color ISO I will wait for either Leica's CSC or an improved XPro1 type of camera with good manual capability. No hurry, next year or the year after... send that icecream over please or maybe I'll take your used M10 the when you trade it in on an MM

[Jamie Roberts]

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{snipped}No hurry, next year or the year after... send that icecream over please or maybe I'll take your used M10 the when you trade it in on an MM

 

Alas, that is not ever going to happen I just hope you can get to work with an MM in the conditions you want to before you purchase it. I'll be interested to see your comparison DNGs.

[Guest malland]

...the MM is a niche cam for specific purposes, namely having a MF-like street and event cam, which kind of makes not much sense to me, both aesthetically and artistically...

Jamie, I think that would be true only if the photographer was intimidated by the range of gradation, shadow detail and resolution that this camera can produce — sort of like a 6x9 camera — as seemed to be the case of some of earliest shots shown from the M-Monochrom. That would also be the case if this camera falls in the hands of landscape photographers whose output was characterised by John Camp on the TOP blog as being "an extended lens test." But when used by photographers that rein it in to their vision, including street photographers, and are not afraid to mangle the files as they wish, the results could be stunning.

 

That is my feeling after working with some of Jono's files. Before that I thought that the camera would not be useful for street photography, but that was based on some of the samples I saw on the web.

 

—Mitch/Hua Hin

Scratching the Surface©

[Jamie Roberts]

Jamie, I think that would be true only if the photographer was intimidated by the range of gradation, shadow detail and resolution that this camera can produce — sort of like a 6x9 camera — as seemed to be the case of some of earliest shots shown from the M-Monochrom. That would also be the case if this camera falls in the hands of landscape photographers whose output was characterised by John Camp on the TOP blog as being "an extended lens test." But when used by photographers that rein it in to their vision, including street photographers, and are not afraid to mangle the files as they wish, the results could be stunning.

 

That is my feeling after working with some of Jono's files. Before that I thought that the camera would not be useful for street photography, but that was based on some of the samples I saw on the web.

 

—Mitch/Hua Hin

Scratching the Surface©

 

Hey Mitch,

 

I'm sure I'm not intimidated by either the shadow detail or the resolution of the MM, and I'm sure--as I've said elsewhere--those doing good work will continue to do good work with the MM.

 

But it's just not for me, even after (especially after) playing with and printing the files.

[01af]

I'll be interested to see your comparison DNGs.

If you want, or need, to see comparison DNGS then the M Monochrom is not for you. Oh wait, that's exactly what you said before.

 

Seriously—improved resolution is nice to have but not the point. The point is being strictly monochrome, as simple as that. That's what Das Wesentliche means.

[pop]

The term "das Wesentliche" does not have a canonical meaning. To one person, it may mean "greytones only without any steps involving colour" while to another one it may mean "greytone images at the native resolution of the lens".

 

The former could be implemented by a modest fix of the firmware while the latter involves the removal of the filter array.

[IkarusJohn]

I'm very grateful to Jamie & Jeff for their contributions to this topic. I feel much better informed, having read and considered your posts.

 

I will probably go for the Monochrom - possibly just GAS; but then ... Rangefinders, and particularly M cameras are really only any good from around 90 mm to 21 mm. A limited range, which limits their application. Not being into distant wildlife or sports, the limits of the M camera don't bother me, and it's other lacking technology I find a productive challenge.

 

A purely B&W camera, with higher resolution and higher ISO, is another challenge, much like the M9 was for me, coming from a traditional SLR.

 

So, cutting to the chase - I could take images almost as good (bearing in mind my skills) converting M9 files to B&W. But then, it's just not quite the same thing - not the same ISO performance, or the same resolution. Also, I quite like the limitation in PP. The same limitations apply to B&W film images.

 

I am still intrigued by the concept.

 

Cheers

John

[Jamie Roberts]

If you want, or need, to see comparison DNGS then the M Monochrom is not for you. Oh wait, that's exactly what you said before.

 

Seriously—improved resolution is nice to have but not the point. The point is being strictly monochrome, as simple as that. That's what Das Wesentliche means.

 

LOL

 

Notwithstanding my meager German translation skills, let me just be clear on this for the last time with you:

• I don't need to be convinced about black and white. I get it.
  
• I do need to be convinced about the MM. Or maybe I don't anymore, but I'll still be interested to see more raw files.
  
• what I've seen so far is unconvincing. Sorry, but it is
  
• being open-minded, I'm open to being convinced, and seeing more raw files from the MM, however skeptical I may be right now
  
• I'm not interested in some faux-authentic nostalgia here, expressed in German or any other language.
  

So please stop taking cheap shots against my understanding, interest or skill, by quoting me out of context and implying "I just don't understand" or that if I need more empirical proof that somehow is a deficiency on my part.

 

Ok? If you want to buy an $8k camera based on web JPEGs and an attitude, please be my guest.

[01af]

 

• I do need to be convinced about the MM. Or maybe I don't anymore, but I'll still be interested to see more raw files.
  
• What I've seen so far is unconvincing. Sorry, but it is.
  
• Being open-minded, I'm open to being convinced, and seeing more raw files from the MM, however skeptical I may be right now.
  

See? That's what I'm talking about.

[Rick]

I like this camera. I like the concept... the essence. I like the clean pixel level files... there I said it. Pixel, Pixel, Pixel! These files are just so sharp. Nothing bleeds over from pixel to pixel from the Bayer processing. The tonal range looks great on the files I've down loaded. I could have a lot of fun taking pictures with this camera and seeing what I could come up with on prints. I really like the look at high ISO. This is just a cool little camera and for those of us with the glass it would be a great experience to use it.

 

I'd also love to have the new 50 APO to shoot on this camera. It looks to be incredible. It would also be fun to use.

 

I hope you get this camera Jaap. I think that your M9 and this camera will give you a lot of years of pleasure and certainly pleasure is one metric of this equation. Maybe, in the end, it is the metric.

 

My prediction of the MM is much like my opinion of the M9 - almost everyone who has actually owned an M9 knows that the "M9 system" is capable of producing the finest FF photographs. And, what a great experience taking pictures with it can be. Unless you really own it and shoot it you probably won't ever really know this. It will always just remain an internet topic of specifications and useless comparisons and tests. I'm sure the MM is destined to be the same phenomenon except for the few that actually own it.

[earful]

it seems that per leica rumors, lr has now added support for both the mm and the new summicron. which leads me to ask, should we assume that future software developments will not change the processing possibilities for the mm files? leica could be opening some doors - or pushing on them - rather than just playing to a closed-end niche.