I'm torn...help?

[Mr. Doug]

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Hey gang.

 

Thanks for indulging me for a few min. I'm really torn, and need some guidance here.

 

My grandfather, and father were both professional photographers...back when that meant something to people. I grew up in our studio, which was also our home. (We had 6 darkrooms and 2 full 60'x50' studio rooms.) When my friends had paper-routes, I was processing E6 and C41 at 9-years old. Photography is something that's deep in my core.

 

I started getting back into things a few years ago, and got sick of lugging all the lenses and associated junk around with my Nikon DSLRs. I decided to get a REAL good point-and-shoot, and just concentrate on the composition of the photograph...not all the crap and lens-switching that had consumed me. That brought me to the Leica family.

 

Started off about 3-months ago when I bought a DLUX-4. I travel A-LOT (over 100k domestic this year so far) so I wanted to have a great camera that I could keep in my briefcase and be able to go shoot some street-pics when I had a break. I also had a trip to Paris that was planning on surprising my wife with. I wanted something small and good to take with me for that week.

 

About 3 days after I got the DLUX-4, I was already looking at the X1. To me, the DLUX wasn't a 'real Leica' and the pictures didn't have the feeling I was looking for. (I think I went TOO far down-stream, too quickly.) I found a local guy with an X1, and I was on my way.

 

The 2-3 weeks that I spent with the X1 were awesome. We had a blast in Paris. I shot almost exclusively in B&W, and took some amazing pics in Paris ( Paris - a set on Flickr ) It fit "ok" in my briefcase, but the funny lens-cap that I bought felt bulky and odd.

 

I stopped by the local camera shop to pick up a lenscap that I ordered, and started playing with the Fuji XPro-1...bad idea. I bought the first one they had...and played with it for about 24hours before I retuned it. No RAW support was a deal-breaker for me...but I DID start playing with the X100 while I was there, and ended up taking one home with me. I love shooting with it. The OVF/EVF thingy is just outstanding. I loved it...but the pics just didn't feel 'as-good' as the ones coming out of the X1.

 

So that led me to looking at an M8. I couldn't find anyone in Cleveland with one that I could borrow for a few days, so I ended up snagging a silver M8U on eBay. I found a local guy (igorcamera.com) that I met up with to get some lenses. Bought a Summicron 50/2 and a Skopar-M 25/4, and set off to play. I thought to myself: "Retro-cool, Check. Great glass, Check. Leica look/feel, Check Check. OVF, Check." Then i started taking pics...

 

The M8 just didn't seem to be as sharp as the X1. I shoot a lot in low-light, so I find myself struggling with focus and settings. A couple of people told me "stick with it...you'll get the hang of it" but I'm starting to get frustrated. The pics are in focus, but the photos don't seem as crisp, and I have this constant feeling that they could be better. I REALLY wanted the X2 to be a X100 killer, at which point I'd just sell of everything, and go to that. So for those of you keeping track at home:

 

X1: Great photos...slow AF and no OVF.

X100: Great size, OVF...not as great as the X1.

M8: Great size, glass...clunky focus, not as great pics overall.

 

I can't be the first person to have this struggle. Anyone with advise for me? Sorry for the long post...I don't have a lot of people locally that I can rely on. (That aren't trying to sell me a new camera anyway.)

 

 

 

BTW: Here's my B&W Photo-set : B&W Shots - a set on Flickr

[geotrupede]

Iso 160 max day, 'sunny 16' or f5.6 + 1/500 - 1/1000, f 5.6 + 1/60 - 1/250 overcast

 

Iso 320 max night, f2 1/15 and f2 1/125 - 1/500 on stage (f2 as reference, if you have f1.4 or f1 obviously adjust)

 

Iso 640+ to avoid unless necessary.

 

all raw, use a good raw converter and try adjusting contrast / sharpness

 

G

[holgerf]

Shooting RAW is indeed the way to end up with the look you have in mind.

 

Could this be the reason for your frustation? I myself have been shooting with the M8 from 2006 and never had this kind of problems.

 

 

Good luck

Holger

[!Nomad64]

Doug,

 

my first impression is that you have the hots for the Fujis. Nothing bad with that, you said you wanted a P&S in the first instance.

However compact I wouldn'd call an M8 a P&S. Besides, it's as sharp as the lenses you mount, as accurate as your rangefinder can be and as steady as your hands are.

If you often shoot in the dark there are two options left: you crank up the ISO, but at 1250 it becomes very grainy or you try to stand as still as you can. None of which helps sharpness. I used to shoot often at theater and got me a 'lux 50/1.4 PreAsph which I used at 640. If it's really dark I push to 1250 but there's a difference!

But I never had any real sharpness issue with mine. The sharpest ever lenses I mounted on it were the Planar 50/2 ZM and the AASPH 'cron 90. I have the CV 25/4 myself (the uncoupled version) and whilst it's great bang for the buck it lags way behind the other two. I upgraded it with the real thing, the Elmarit 24/2.8 which rewarded me with better distortion control and better performance on the whole field. It was also one of the sharpest lenses available.

But if you say P&S then you mean one simple do-it-all camera with non interchangeable lens. In these terms give in to your lust for the Fujis and be happy with it.

In any case sharpness is more of a self rewarding issue rather than an asset for any picture. I have never seen a shot of the masters that made me think "Beautiful, but if it only had more detail". Actually the best street shots are quite grainy, blurred, out of focus...

There are landscapes, you might say. Well, the renowned Galen Rowell often used cheap Nikon zooms and if one carefully looks at some of his prints will notice some fuzziness. But does it really matter? I don't think so. I wouldn't lose my sleep over sharpness, but that's just me.

 

Hope this helps,

Bruno

[DwF]

Doug,

 

I enjoyed seeing your Paris pictures. I have an X1 that I abandoned to my closet lately for my M8. This is only the first time since getting the X1 a year and half ago, that I have put it away. I plan to travel with both this summer. The X1 is a wonderful camera.

 

The advice to shoot raw is right on with M8. Also, for low light the X1 will yield cleaner results. The M8 does pretty well nonetheless, and best when keeping ISO as low as possible. As threads here will show, most people stay to 640 iso with this camera. I find that with an f2 lens, the camera steadies very well even to 1/8th for street shooting; results can be exceptional.

 

I say stick with the M8 for a while, it is a great camera, and really compliments an X1. I would recommend trying and find a 28 or 35 Summicron, because those focal lengths are very useful on the M8 and you get some more speed than with your Skopar. The CV28 3.5 also makes a nice body cap for the M8.

 

Attached is a recent exposure taken at iso160 1/15th probably at 3.5 Not sure how it will upload here but enlarged, everything is crisp and clean.

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[Mr. Doug]

Thanks for the advise gang. I'm still playing with everything.

 

I took the X1 and X100 out today for Mothers Day festivities. The M8 WAS going to come out, but I forgot the battery in the charger at the house, so I ended up with an AB test instead of an ABC test. I shot RAW all day, so I can play with the files and see what I want to end up with. I primarily shoot B&W, so I guess once I get myself a setting I'm comfortable with in Silver-EFX, I'll be dialed-in with either.

 

I'm going to spend some time with the M8 before I pass judgement. The focusing is painful right now...probably because I'm not used to it yet.

 

I REALLY dig the photos of the X1, but the handiness of the X100 was just so easy to drag around today.

[Virginia Bill]

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Three thoughts.

 

1. I really like your Paris pictures; the X1 did good work for you.

2. When I first got my M8, some months ago, I fumbled with focus for several weeks. I'm not yet expert, but focusing did get easier (and more reliable). Relearning the methods of manual focus (prefocus, zone focus, dof) takes a while. Stick with it. And shoot RAW.

3. Look closely at the X2. It may be the camera designed for you.

[hx911]

Thanks for the advise gang. I'm still playing with everything.

 

I took the X1 and X100 out today for Mothers Day festivities. The M8 WAS going to come out, but I forgot the battery in the charger at the house, so I ended up with an AB test instead of an ABC test. .

I did a similar thing a while ago - used a x100 and an x1 (and my M9) but mainly wanted to decide which small p&s to buy.

I like the x100, but find the lens lacking, and miss having a viewfinder on the x1.

Ended up buying neither and keep using the M9

 

I found I could not use the X100 and x1 in manual focus, just in auto

[daubsphoto]

Make sure that your lenses are properly aligned...one of my older lenses had the quite-common back-focusing problem, which made me start to wonder whether I had forgotten how to focus when I started using the M8.

[JeTexas]

How old is the 50/2 you're using on the M8? I have one from the late 1960s. It doesn't LOOK foggy when you examine it, but I find the photographs come out noticeably softer than when I use my new Voigtlanders.

[ramosa]

M8: Great size, glass...clunky focus, not as great pics overall.

 

Actually, the more you use a rangefinder, the more you will likely consider manual focus to be normal AND auto focus on other cameras to be clunky. I can't imagine going back to having my main camera have auto focus. I have auto focus on my Ricoh GRD IV, but much, much prefer the M8's manual focus.

 

Also, per your mention of not getting M8 photos in focus, how is your vision? I ask because the M8 has a normal view of -.05 diopters, so you may need an adjustment. Or, as someone else intimated, it may be that your lens it out of line.

[mugget]

Strange that you mention the M8 to be giving your sharpness troubles. I have an M8 as well, except with a Summilux and I have no problem at all.

 

But one thing... you mentioned that you grew up with cameras, photography etc., but when was the last time you used a rangefinder? Especially since you can from DSLR... I was exactly the same, sold all my DSLR gear and bought the used M8 & Summilux. But I don't shoot all that often (something I'm trying to improve on...) but it did take me quite a while to get the 'hang' of focusing a rangefinder. In fact, it took my about 8 months or so... inside that time a couple of big trips where I was literally using the camera every day for a week or two at a time. Very different to SLR...

 

Maybe try zone or hyperfocal focusing, may give better results for what you're shooting?

[Messsucherkamera]

Given your background (developing E6 and C41 at age nine) have you given any thought at all to the possibility of getting a film Leica M? Don't rule film photography out - you will be doing yourself a disservice if you do. At least give it some serious consideration. JMHO.

 

In terms of money, you could pick up a couple of clean used film M cameras and either a clean used 35 summicron or 28/2.8 and a 50 summicron for much less cash outlay than a new M9P or a Monochrome M.

 

Just something to think about...

[tobey bilek]

There are no small cameras that take pics like the Leica. Stop looking, wasting time and money. If it existed, everyone would have one.

 

Open your wallet and get what you need.

 

Fuji raw support is by Silky Pix or use the DNG converter from Adobe, then LR or PS.

[Clive Murray-White]

I think this is one of the great photo conundrums. Holidays, incidental travel, day to day snaps and the ever present thought that you want to take good pictures - my wife doesn't think like that at all and is perfectly happy with her Panasonic LX3, has it with her all the time and covers most situations quite adequately.

 

I have 3 digital cameras, an ageing DSLR, M8 and X100, sure the Fuji doesn't take better pics than the Leica but the M8 is seriously challenged when the sun goes down, the luxury of being able to shoot non-arty apertures with the Fuji gives it the edge as far as I'm concerned, all in a handy sized little package -

 

DSLR gets used for stuff that a rangefinder is challenged by, the M8 does the serious stuff and the Fuji has all the fun.

[geoffreyg]

There are no small cameras that take pics like the Leica. Stop looking, wasting time and money. If it existed, everyone would have one.

 

Music to my ears. I have an M8, but unlike the OP, mine sits in the closet because it is dwarfed by a new love affair with MFDB. For that, I use a monopod, focus confirmation, ISO from 50-200, and mirror lockup.

 

The M8 is stealth by comparison, quick and even simple. Again, for real shots, nothing over ISO 320, 640 only in a pinch, forget the rest. Keep 1/30 or faster, and fix in post, until you get a steady hand. Brace yourself on walls for steadiness, learn the classic Leica way to hold the camera (left hand mounting, three fingers under the camera, front two fingers for focus, elbow tight into the body...and the right hand for shutter release ONLY). THis will stabilize your shots.

 

As to lenses - the CV15 is a killer, the 28 and 35's special, as is the 50 f2 'cron. No problems with these at all. Should exceed the X1. Make sure all is up to spec. Try shooting more at f8, less wide open (as focus wide open can be off perhaps, and DOF is narrow).

 

Geoff

 

PS - these images are tack sharp in real versions. Reduced down they look horrid! if you want a copy, just PM me.

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[!Nomad64]

There are no small cameras that take pics like the Leica. Stop looking, wasting time and money. If it existed, everyone would have one.

 

Actually there were some that came really close: Rollei T 35 with 40 Tessar and Rollei S 35 with 40 Sonnar, for instance. Both mechanical, manual, with coupled lightmeter. But they had no rangefinder and no interchangeable lenses. I have both of them. Very pocketable, just a bit bigger than a 20 cigarettes pack, all metal and glass. Contax T and T2 also. I had a T2 which was later stolen. A little jewel, but I didn't like too much it was an autoeverything with no manual controls.

 

Cheers,

Bruno

[andym911]

Am a big Leica fan but I assure you that if you get a Nikon manual film body...stick a 50mm 1.8 AIS and a 28mm AIS lens you will get photographs that are at least as good as the leica images.

my personal favorites are the kodak retinas...rangefinder of top quality!

 

if it needs to be a leica then get the best...M2.

 

If it must be digital then then show me an image that you could not be proud of with a canon 500d and 50/1.4 or 35/f2.0

 

Best regards

 

andy

[Jamie Roberts]

A couple of things from a long-time M8 and M9 owner:

 

• If you're not getting sharper images with an M8 and 50 Summicron than the Fuji something is way out of whack. Seriously out of whack. The M8 has no AA filter and it's super sharp. Does your Summicron lens focus properly close up and at infinity? Even wide open it should be more than fine in the center, and sharper than the Fuji too.
  
• The little CV 25 Skopar never impressed me that much, though, and if that's your main glass on the M8 that may be your problem right there. It's hard to believe at f4 it wouldn't be sharp, though, unless there was something wrong. But it's the wrong mate for the M8 OTH, if you can track down a CV 28 1.9 ASPH (they're discontinued, but a really nice lens on the M8) then grab it; it's great and close to a 35 FOV. And fast If you want a 25, and you can't afford the 24 Leicas, and you want contrast and sharpness, then I'd go Zeiss personally. Here's a CV on eBay:
  Cosina Voigtlander Ultron 28 mm F/1.9 Lens - Leica Screw + Filter + M Adapter 4002451194839 | eBay
  
• ISO 640 is fine on the M8, if you're shooting BW (because of colour mixing) you can easily go to 1250 or even 2500 if you're careful with exposure IMO. It's going to look, noise-wise, like pushed TriX. In other words, it will make a very nice print.
  
• For the nicest BW possible, take the IR filters OFF your M8, shoot in colour, make as good a colour image as you can, then convert in Capture One or PS. You will be amazed if you know what you're doing in post and you're used to film.
  

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

 

PS - these images are tack sharp in real versions. Reduced down they look horrid! if you want a copy, just PM me.

If they are tack sharp in the original they should reduce down to tack sharp. Use the following Photoshop technique: Set your cropping tool to 960x640 px , .” crop” the entire image and hit enter. Sharpen using between 10 and 25 %, radius 0.5 for high-frequency images, 1.0 for standard images and 1.5 for low-frequency images, threshold 1. Go to “edit” , “ fade”, “ 100 %” and pull down “luminosity” Save at quality 10.