chrisnl Posted March 4, 2007 Share #1 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello folks, rumours came to me about a new Leica M with more than 20 M-Pixels for Photographs in Black & White only. That would be terrific! Â Can anyone comment that rumour? Â Thanks, Â Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergiolov Posted March 4, 2007 Share #2 Â Posted March 4, 2007 I don't know about 20 MP, (seems very difficult) but a member of the italian LEICAPASSION forum reported that a M8BW is on the LEICA italy pricelist of march with a price 300 Euro higher than that of the standard M8. He saw the price list, that also shows a great price increase for the Noctilux, at the LEICA DAY organized by FOTO DOTTI, a Leica dealer in Parma. Don't shoot the messenger.... Â Sergio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted March 4, 2007 Share #3 Â Posted March 4, 2007 New Leica M in the Pipeline for Black & White only seems a bit futile as the m8 does an excellent take on it now with a colour bonus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 4, 2007 Share #4 Â Posted March 4, 2007 I think the rumour started when the M8 was first released and the IR problem came to light, that owners were saying they'd keep it as a B&W camera only, or if Leica made it as a B&W only camera they'd still buy it. Â Amazing how these things grow! (unless I'm wrong of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAG Posted March 4, 2007 Share #5 Â Posted March 4, 2007 I don't know about 20 MP, (seems very difficult) but a member of the italian LEICAPASSION forum reported that a M8BW is on the LEICA italy pricelist of march with a price 300 Euro higher than that of the standard M8.He saw the price list, that also shows a great price increase for the Noctilux, at the LEICA DAY organized by FOTO DOTTI, a Leica dealer in Parma. Don't shoot the messenger.... Â Sergio Note that Foto Dotti is notoriously on the expensive side, especially regarding used Leica gear. Such a price list by Foto Dotti doesn't mean nothing to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted March 4, 2007 Share #6 Â Posted March 4, 2007 If Leica would remove the colour pixel filter layer, then the sensor would have a much higher basic light sensitivity, probably something like ISO 320 or 400. If they would also remove the weak internal IR absorption filter, it would be even higher, and you would have a really IR capable M, with an appropriate dark red or black visible-light-cutting filter of course. Â I too have heard these rumours and disbelieved them, but if someone has actually seen a price list ... Signs and wonders. Â The old man from the Age of Roll Film Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted March 4, 2007 Share #7 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... and the we have a 20.Mio b/w pixel cam for our photos we show at the web or print out at 13x18cm ? wow, we really need it ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted March 4, 2007 Share #8  Posted March 4, 2007 what is true  the was a Japanese digital for Japan consumption only 18Mp B&W also $5000 equiv I cant recall if it was a Fuji or not it was predominantly blue in colour and was described as retro, but was more like the Japanese version of retro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted March 4, 2007 Share #9 Â Posted March 4, 2007 .... the idea of a B&W sounded great then.... I thought about it...... a no as I like the idea of using B&W filters in a raw convertor than over a lens........leaving options open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 4, 2007 Share #10 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Hi all, Â Sadly to say, this seems to be unlikely. The current M8 has a 10MP sensor, I doubt very much that a 20MP sensor (that is twice that of the current one), could be manufactured and sold for only 300 Euro's more - albeit a B&W sensor only. If you take a camera like the Canon 1DSII, with its 16MP full frame sensor, most people were led on to believe (certainly by Canon that is), that three quarters of the price of the camera was made up by the cost of the sensor alone. Â But then things in the silicon world do change very quickly - one can only ask the question, will the M9 be a 20MP fully IR corrected colour camera, and if they are bringing this BW version out now, then surely the colour version can not be very far off (IMHO less than 1 year). If they really do bring this M8BW on the market then maybe all of those of us waiting patiently for our M8's to arrive should cancel our orders and wait for the inevitable M9... Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted March 4, 2007 Share #11 Â Posted March 4, 2007 I don't know about the rumours - I think the last company to do this was Kodak. However, a 10mp black and white M8 would have fantastic definition - remember, the bayer filter is effectively using groups of 4 pixels to average the values for the colour - removing it doesn't give you four times the resolution - but it hugely increases it. Â I think a 10mp black and white M8 would be a fantastic thing - I'd certainly like to have one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted March 4, 2007 Share #12 Â Posted March 4, 2007 It's an interesting rumor. I'll just observe that when it first surfaced last fall I thought, hmm, that might be intriguing - given that the vast preponderance of what I've shot with my Leicas over the years has been B&W. But having now used the M8 for a couple months I have to say I'm very smitten with the notion of having both a color and B&W shot from each frame (remember the old days of carrying two camera bodies - one with color and one with B&W?). And as someone else has already mentioned, the image quality is very high. Â I'm less inclined to embrace a dedicated B&W camera today than I was six months ago. Â Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 4, 2007 Share #13  Posted March 4, 2007 Leica was asking to dealers, experts and pros about the potential interest of a Black&White-only camera (I don't know if M or R). That was the start of the rumor.  A sensor without a Bayer filter array have much more sensitivity to light. There isn't color interpolation, so the real resolution (real detail per pixel) is much higher too. The use of filters, however, should be like in the old days: real filters in front of the lens.  Kodak manufactured the Kodak DCS 760m, a reflex camera without Bayer filter. Read this (it is very interesting):  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/kodak-760m.shtml  R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted March 4, 2007 Share #14 Â Posted March 4, 2007 So, with a much higher sensitivity, only lumincance noise, and a Noctilux, it might even be possible to take pictures with definition in a black hole, such as the one caused by Guy taking the screw out of the flash shoe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andit Posted March 4, 2007 Share #15 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Well, from reading that article at Luminous Landscape, it's theoretically possible that Leica could bring out an M8BW. Since, basically, all there doing is removing the Bayer Colour Filter Array and in that way quadrupling the resolution. From looking at the images posted in the article, this M8BW would kick some serious butt. IMHO it should give you images that will blow away anything seen up to now - this will really make the most of Leica's lenses resolution power, which are the highest in the industry. Roll on M8BW... Â Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted March 4, 2007 Share #16 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Would make a nice third or fourth M8-body for some of you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted March 4, 2007 Share #17  Posted March 4, 2007 Well, from reading that article at Luminous Landscape, it's theoretically possible that Leica could bring out an M8BW. Since, basically, all there doing is removing the Bayer Colour Filter Array and in that way quadrupling the resolution. From looking at the images posted in the article, this M8BW would kick some serious butt. IMHO it should give you images that will blow away anything seen up to now - this will really make the most of Leica's lenses resolution power, which are the highest in the industry. Roll on M8BW...Andreas  Is that really all there is to it? If I sent my M8 off to a private Leica repair service and told them to remove the Bayer filter, would I then have a fully functioning B&W M8?  I would think you might want some kind of protective plate over the actual surface of tne sensor, wouldn't you? And might that not create other problems?  (I might not actually want to do this with an M8, but I've got a RD1 that I'd be willing to experiment with. I just have a feeling that it ain't this simple.)  JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted March 4, 2007 Share #18  Posted March 4, 2007 Is that really all there is to it? If I sent my M8 off to a private Leica repair service and told them to remove the Bayer filter, would I then have a fully functioning B&W M8? I would think you might want some kind of protective plate over the actual surface of tne sensor, wouldn't you? And might that not create other problems?  (I might not actually want to do this with an M8, but I've got a RD1 that I'd be willing to experiment with. I just have a feeling that it ain't this simple.)  JC  You would also need some custom firmware so the M8 doesn't try to interpolate colours - it doesn't know the Bayer filter is absent...  Imants comment gives me pause for thought. If you did have a B&W M8, would we be back to yellow/red/green filters, or would we be able to fudge these in postprocessing software?  Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 4, 2007 Share #19 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Why oh why did I ever point that screw out to Guy? The universe will never be the same. I am very sorry and I apologize to the rest of you. Mia culpa! Â His sad story on Kodak and their failure to listen is a lesson I hope Leica management can learn from and not repeat. Remember, even when he customer is wrong he is right! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted March 4, 2007 Share #20 Â Posted March 4, 2007 Not wanting to disappoint anyone, but the Bayer filter is an integral part of the CCD. No way to remove the Bayer filter from the current sensor - Kodak would have to build a Bayerless sensor for Leica. Which could be done, but it would be a different part. And given the probability that not that many would be sold, that would be quite expensive. So 300 Euros sounds to low to be true:mad: Â Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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