lars_bergquist Posted April 9, 2012 Share #81 Posted April 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) They sure were of low permanence. My first attempts at color using an Agfa Click and Agfa negative film in 1957 turned a faint sepia within the decade, despite being kept in the dark. Framed prints would last about a year.My father’s slides from the early fifties are not much better by now. The only color left besides brown seems to be a muddy green. The ones from the sixties are much better. The Ansco film was actually Agfacolor, i.e. a slide film. In 1945 the victor powers declared all German patents to be in the public domain, as the Reich that had issued them was now defunct, and Ansco took over the Agfa process. It is true that colour negative films started in the late 1950's, but the quality was quite low. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Hi lars_bergquist, Take a look here Rumoured B&W _ONLY_ digital M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share #82 Posted April 9, 2012 When did "xxxcolor" start referring to neg film and "xxxchrome" to slide film? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 9, 2012 Share #83 Posted April 9, 2012 1937? Early Kodachrome Images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 9, 2012 Share #84 Posted April 9, 2012 Unlikely http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/149913-new-kodak-sensor.html The M9 sensor is not shown on the Kodak web-site, just the old M8 KAF-10500, nor is the S2 sensor, so it's likely the sensors Leica are using are specials which are for them only. The sensor referred to in Andy's link could make a shutterless camera but with potential issues with sensor ageing - the best place to keep a sensor is in the dark behind a real shutter. I like Andy Piper's analogy to a matrix of theatre seats to explain how the sensor readout works... The power consumption in that sensor, something about 1W when running, I would not have thought would cause problems with heat generation for it to require active cooling, it's possible they have improved this from the first announcement. If there is a new camera, it will be interesting to see what sensor direction Leica are taking and whether there's any observable move away from Kodak (as was) CCD solutions. If they stay with Kodak, a new sensor would likely dip into Kodak's kit bag of available technologies, remembering of course that the issue of light fall off from M wide-angles is still there and has to be tacked in anything they do new and different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted April 9, 2012 Share #85 Posted April 9, 2012 1937? Early Kodachrome Images Thank you. Wonderful set of photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted April 9, 2012 Share #86 Posted April 9, 2012 Despite being someone who favours monochrome photography over colour, I still voted 'No' because I struggle to see just what real improvement to digital monochrome images such a sensor could offer over and above my M9 and SilverEfexPro2 - example image. Sigma's Foveon sensor is reputed to produce excellent monochrome tones due to it's unique construction, lack of Bayer filter etc but is obviously still a full colour sensor, so just where would the market niche be for a true b&w only sensor? When I want to work purely in monochrome, I tend to favour analogue over digital and set-off with one or two film bodies and a selection of HP5 and Acros100 canisters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 9, 2012 Share #87 Posted April 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1937? Early Kodachrome Images Six years later - 4"x5" Kodachrome. More http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/1a35329u_3.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 9, 2012 Share #88 Posted April 9, 2012 The M10 will actually come without any sensor at all. The removable baseplate will expose a slot into which you will fit a sensor board rather like a large memory card. There will be a choice of sensors including B&W only. Several colour options and different resolutions. Sensor cleaning will be really easy. You heard it here first, just don't ask how I know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted April 9, 2012 Share #89 Posted April 9, 2012 Now that would be a great idea and eventually the direction cameras will. As for b and w only. Can software reverse it into color photo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 9, 2012 Share #90 Posted April 9, 2012 When did "xxxcolor" start referring to neg film and "xxxchrome" to slide film? 1942, it seems, for Kodak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodacolor_(still_photography) Agfa originally used "Agfacolor" for positive (slide) images in the 30's. By the 1960's they were using the Kodak chrome/color distinction (Agfachrome CT-18). Not sure when they made the transition (during post-WW2 restucturing?). Autochromes were around from 1904 on, so that may have set the pattern for "chrome = positive color original." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted April 10, 2012 Share #91 Posted April 10, 2012 I have voted "No" in Andy's fun poll, but after reading Thorsten's latest article speculating on the possible properties of a B&W sensor, if I was voting now it would have to be a "Maybe'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted April 11, 2012 Share #92 Posted April 11, 2012 There will be a choice of sensors including B&W only. Several colour options and different resolutions. Sensor cleaning will be really easy.. Yes, just pop it in the dishwasher alongside the remnants of last night's Vindaloo... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 12, 2012 Share #93 Posted April 12, 2012 Yes, just pop it in the dishwasher alongside the remnants of last night's Vindaloo... No, I was thinking the M10 owner would only have to post the 'sensor card' back to Leica for cleaning instead of the whole camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted April 12, 2012 Share #94 Posted April 12, 2012 The economics of a BW only M are not going to be pretty for consumers.because the sales will small - it would after all be a niche of a niche. Blackstone's involvement, imho, will push Leica towards broader rather than narrower markets. We are therefore more likely to see Leica use its production capacity - even at its new facility -- for products that will expand its appeal and sales volume. For that reason, I think an EVF Leica and/or live view Leica is more likely than a black and white only Leica M. BTW, I voted no. I want greater DR as much as anyone but not in a camera that forces me to think in BW. One of the great joys of digital is not being limited by the "film" you are shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted April 12, 2012 Share #95 Posted April 12, 2012 Alan I agree with you on all of that and I voted no as well. Reading some of the posts from a couple of members on this perhaps reveals some remarkable prescience, one might even say coloured by a little foreknowledge:rolleyes: I have none of that but the 'evidence' seems to be building towards several new products. My speculation is that the BW M will appear but be a premium limited and more expensive run... that will sell out. I cannot imagine that it would replace the M9 as the serial production camera. A new super Summicron 50mm sounds a likely option too., but we get hints that it is something more than that. Curioser and curioser. I have a feeling though that there will be much more in the announcements and the viral marketing is working well since we seem to have no leaks on those mystery items thus far at all. What I'm not looking forward to though is the forum threads when all of the new stuff is announced and no-one can get their hands on any of it yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 12, 2012 Share #96 Posted April 12, 2012 Let's face it, if Leica were to release a B&W only M9, limited run of 500, £30K body only, they would sell out within a few days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 12, 2012 Share #97 Posted April 12, 2012 My speculation is that the BW M will appear but be a premium limited and more expensive run... that will sell out. I cannot imagine that it would replace the M9 as the serial production camera. +1 I also voted No. I have an M3 loaded with Tri-X for B&W. I have no interest in taking colour film pictures. Apart from niche interest, I see no point in a B&W only sensor. If people feel that the dynamic range of the current sensor is no good enough, the solution is to improve the dynamic range, not to limit the sensor to B&W only. But then if Leica will issue versions in snake skin, white leather and titanium, maybe they'd do a very expensive limited edition version of the M10 with the colour filters removed from the sensor. I'l stick to Silver Efex Pro, and the flexibility of having a sensor which captures as much of the information provided by the lenses as possible, including colour. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted April 12, 2012 Share #98 Posted April 12, 2012 I'l stick to Silver Efex Pro, and the flexibility of having a sensor which captures as much of the information provided by the lenses as possible, including colour. As a matter of fact it isn’t true that a sensor with a colour filter array captured more information than a sensor without those filters. There is no way you could get colour for free – for any information gained there is also information lost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 12, 2012 Share #99 Posted April 12, 2012 As a matter of fact it isn’t true that a sensor with a colour filter array captured more information than a sensor without those filters. There is no way you could get colour for free – for any information gained there is also information lost. Hi Michael. I think I understand your point. As I understand it, the sensor in my M9 relies on a Bayer Filter array, which allocates particular RGB frequencies to particular bits on the sensor (pardon my lack of technical jargon, but I hope you get my point). What the B&W proponents argue is that doing away with the Bayer Filter array, and having a pure IR or clear glass over the sensor, means that the entire sensor is B&W with no filtering - hence the greater dynamic range. My comment about capturing more information relates to the fact that the sensor captures the RGB spectrum. Removing the Bayer Filter means that information is lost, presumably with a gain in dynamic range. Similarly, you can't sensibly convert a pure B&W picture, taken from a B&W sensor, back into colour. So, it is fair to say that something is lost in the original conversion. The better solution therefore is surely to improve the dynamic range of the sensor with colour array. Granted, it can then be argued that even better B&W can be achieved by removing the filters, but then we are chasing our tails. For me, 18 MP is plenty, but there will always be others who want more, I guess. Perhaps the solution is for Leica to offer a limited B&W version of every sensor, for a premium of course. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted April 13, 2012 Share #100 Posted April 13, 2012 To poorly paraphrase ... Any sufficiently advanced sensor* is indistinguishable from film. *With a given spectral sensitivity, a sufficiently large number of pixels; large dynamic range and enough ADC bits. The other laws are also quite applicable to this discussion. Clarke's three laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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