stunsworth Posted April 6, 2012 Share #21  Posted April 6, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) As for price it scares me to see people here talking about only a £1000 delta between an M9-P and this new body (I call it an MP-. In my mind it needs to be several thousand pounds less expensive to have any hope for success  With the only substantial difference between the two cameras being the sensor I don't see this as even a remote possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here Rumoured B&W _ONLY_ digital M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stussy2k Posted April 6, 2012 Share #22 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Well the good news for Leica is that they have 10 potential customers out there ready to buy it!! Â Product managers at Leica AG HQ's reaction: D'oh!!! Â But seriously. Am surprised to see that almost 38% (Yes 23.4+Depends 14.9) would consider themselves buyers/potential buyers (although all relative with only ~40 votes so far). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richam Posted April 6, 2012 Share #23 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Yes, on the assumption that there would be real improvements in dynamic range, resolution, and other qualities that would be impossible to achieve with a color sensor, even in post-processing. I would expect such an "M" to rival or even surpass results in an "S" or Hassy with color sensor and B&W conversion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted April 6, 2012 Share #24 Â Posted April 6, 2012 With the only substantial difference between the two cameras being the sensor I don't see this as even a remote possibility. Â Unfortunately I agree, which leads me back to the question of why I would want to buy another M body that is less capable than my M9-P. I know that Swamiji feels that a b&w only sensor will have higher dynamic range and higher iso capabilities, but this feels like Leica trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Â Even Magnum photographers occasionally shoot color... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 6, 2012 Author Share #25 Â Posted April 6, 2012 ... why I would want to buy another M body that is less capable than my M9-P... Â It might be MORE capable at shooting B&W. Otherwise, what's the point at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted April 6, 2012 Share #26  Posted April 6, 2012 If the B&W camera is nothing more than the current M9 minus the Bayer array - then not interested.  If it's the current sensor with the Bayer RGB array replaced with a clear/greyND array to yield vastly better dynamic range - then that could be interesting.  If it's a new retro body style that looks like a MP : i.e. thinner , manual wind and even no LCD - then yes  If a M10 B&W and M11 color are both launched - the M11 would likely be the choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted April 6, 2012 Share #27 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) It might be MORE capable at shooting B&W. Otherwise, what's the point at all? Â What's the point??? Why more HDR photos of course!!! Oh goodie, you won't need to shoot multiple exposures and stitch them together any more, thanks to the new MP-B!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted April 6, 2012 Share #28  Posted April 6, 2012 If the B&W camera is nothing more than the current M9 minus the Bayer array - then not interested. If it's the current sensor with the Bayer RGB array replaced with a clear/greyND array to yield vastly better dynamic range - then that could be interesting.  Fully agree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted April 6, 2012 Share #29 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Well the good news for Leica is that they have 10 potential customers out there ready to buy it!! Â That will mean a 3 week wait then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 6, 2012 Author Share #30 Â Posted April 6, 2012 What's the point??? Â HDR? Â The point is that it might take better B&W photographs than a normal M9 - or any other 18MPx camera for that matter. Â That's the point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.poulton Posted April 6, 2012 Share #31 Â Posted April 6, 2012 I know this is totally irrational, weird in fact, but it's been a long held personal belief that if I were to go down the digital route, it would be with a dedicated B+W digital camera! Â Why? Well, I'll try to explain it if I can - currently, with an m8 or m9 (or any digital camera for that matter) if you want to take a B+W image you have to take a full colour image first, then convert in post (I'm ignoring in camera 'effects', 'filters' and what-not). Â The conversion process just offers too much opportunity to totally change the 'look and feel' of the image. From my past experience of scanning colour slides and converting to B+W, I have spent literally hours over each image trying out different techniques, coloured layers, etc etc and still not ending up with anything that I am truly happy with. There is just too much choice (for me). Also I end up forever debating with myself the merits of keeping the image in colour or conversion to B+W - I can never truly decide which is the better option..... Â I much prefer making choices with the type of film loaded and the use of coloured filters (or not). Yes I know that in the darkroom one has the opportunity to totally change the look and feel of a neg, but I consider this another process that is removed from the original picture taking, film processing and either scanning or simple printing of the images. Â Irrational as I said and certainly open to being pulled apart, but that's just my personal point of view. So, I could be one of the few (mad, stupid?) persons who actually buy a dedicated B+W digital m! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40mm f/2 Posted April 6, 2012 Share #32 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Removing the color filters from the sensor may increase the DR by 2 stops (wild guess). So based on the sensor technology Leica is presently using the DR could approach what the better CMOS color sensors achieve today. And that would be close to what can be achieved with B&W film. I expect and hope that B&W film will survive longer than the live expectancy of a digital sensor (not so optimistic for color film). Also the resolution of some B&W films is far greater than any current sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michali Posted April 6, 2012 Share #33 Â Posted April 6, 2012 It doesn't even remotely interest me at any price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted April 6, 2012 Share #34 Â Posted April 6, 2012 Andy has said the poll is just for fun and for sure there are enough people interested in chatting about the possibility in the forum. My solution for a camera for BW was to get an M7 again for when I want to produce BW film results. It is based on an odd rationale really. Not the camera, the Poll. If there is to be an announcement then of course the design and production decisions must already be complete. In fact they must have made some already . So nothing people wish for here will make any difference. Â The other aspect I personally find odd is the caveat people want to attach. Much of the comment seems to be IF it has greater dynamic range, resolution, no screen manual, shutter cocking etc . Basically wish lists rather than considered whether the personal favourites actually are likely/practical to sell in the market. That is fair enough for people to say I'd like this or that in their dream camera but then the comments seem to finish with AND IF it only costs (whatever personal desired price). That just makes no sense to me. If this turns out to be true surely this would be a low production numbers, more expensive model like the Titanium edition etc. No-one can contemplate that this would be a primary standard camera to replace the M9?? Â Still, I guess we will see which of the forum folks keen on the idea of a BW only M end up actually buying one! Â I registerd my No thanks vote and I predict there will be a camera, made in small quantities, costing more and selling out to be largely collected or used as an investment and a handful of photographers who will buy one and use it and show us results here to make us wistful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 6, 2012 Share #35  Posted April 6, 2012 I fear your argument is fallacious. Postprocessing a color slide to B&W is a totally different proposition than doing so from a sensor file and far more demanding. From a digital camera it only involves controlling the color channels -equivalent to choosing the spectral response of your film and using color filters-,controlling contrast and brightness -like film exposure, developing and paper gradation-, controlling sharpness and midtone contrast through unsharp masking -a wet darkroom technique-. burning and dodging -flapping your shaped pieces of cardboard under your enlarger-, toning if desired -remember Selenium etc?-. Digital has not changed the basics at all.  I know this is totally irrational, weird in fact, but it's been a long held personal belief that if I were to go down the digital route, it would be with a dedicated B+W digital camera! Why? Well, I'll try to explain it if I can - currently, with an m8 or m9 (or any digital camera for that matter) if you want to take a B+W image you have to take a full colour image first, then convert in post (I'm ignoring in camera 'effects', 'filters' and what-not).  The conversion process just offers too much opportunity to totally change the 'look and feel' of the image. From my past experience of scanning colour slides and converting to B+W, I have spent literally hours over each image trying out different techniques, coloured layers, etc etc and still not ending up with anything that I am truly happy with. There is just too much choice (for me). Also I end up forever debating with myself the merits of keeping the image in colour or conversion to B+W - I can never truly decide which is the better option.....  I much prefer making choices with the type of film loaded and the use of coloured filters (or not). Yes I know that in the darkroom one has the opportunity to totally change the look and feel of a neg, but I consider this another process that is removed from the original picture taking, film processing and either scanning or simple printing of the images.  Irrational as I said and certainly open to being pulled apart, but that's just my personal point of view. So, I could be one of the few (mad, stupid?) persons who actually buy a dedicated B+W digital m! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted April 7, 2012 Share #36  Posted April 7, 2012 A B&W only camera will not take better B&W photos than post processing RGB… if you know how. The B&W file severely limits what you have to work with. This is the screwiest idea I’ve heard of yet. Go Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted April 7, 2012 Share #37 Â Posted April 7, 2012 This whole idea of a B&W only camera has me thinking of the recent HBO movie "Game Change" about John McCain choosing Sarah Palin as his running mate. In the movie this bold, out of the box move is at first seen as brilliant, however it is later shown that the idea was not properly vetted and, well, you know the rest. Â I know that nothing is released yet, but lately Leica is even worse than Apple at keeping secrets. In light of that, and considering that on the Leica User Forum the Will Not Buy group is 3X larger than the Will Buy group I have to really wonder what is going on in Solms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
urs0polar Posted April 7, 2012 Share #38 Â Posted April 7, 2012 I would buy it, if I had the money, and if they release one I will be waiting and hoping to one day afford a used one. I think it could be awesome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylgo Posted April 7, 2012 Share #39 Â Posted April 7, 2012 I would love to see Leica develop this idea into a real camera, would love to handle it and see the files, as a registered fence sitter....a big Maybe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 7, 2012 Share #40 Â Posted April 7, 2012 Well the good news for Leica is that they have 10 potential customers out there ready to buy it!! Â That should just about match the production run (now up to 21)....for $22,000 each, in "Black & White" livery (black leatherette, white top and bottom plates, black control fittings - the ultimate "Panda." Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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