Aperture M8 support - much longer to wait

[mgcd]

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I am surprised some of you are still waiting on Apple to support our professional Leica cameras at the system level. I just needed one meeting with an Apple rep last year at a conference to realise that Apple just could not be bothered and frankly was not prepared to give us the respect that any customer deserves. So I gave up on Aperture long ago and honestly with Capture One Pro, who cares?

 

Cheers,

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[MarcRochkind]

That Apple even thinks that the issue is supporting the M8 is the problem. M8-produced DNGs have worked with Adobe apps since a couple of years BEFORE the M8 first appeared, because Adobe supports DNG. Apple does not---they treat DNG as just another camera-specific format.

 

To my knowledge, there are only 2 apps that need raw support from OS X: Aperture and Preview. Otherwise, lots of people process M8 DNGs just fine on Macs, using ACR, Lightroom, C1, etc., etc.

 

What the guy from Apple was really saying was this: Aperture is in a fight, and that fight wil be won based on who gets the most Nikon and Canon users. Spending even 5 min. on Leica users takes 5 min. away from what's necessary to win the fight.

 

Unless you've already paid for Aperture, and I guess a few folks have, my suggestion is to stay away from any situation that requires that Apple have a real commitment to digital photography. It is obvious that they do not and that Adobe does.

 

--Marc

[Guest Olof]

Apple ist not interested in us as customers, thats all !

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Conrad i have to agree as much as i would like to have there managed system of filing there are other packages that can do that also and C1 pro is my mainstay anyway. Hopefully after PMA i will have a a lot more info on that I hope to be able to share on there new version 4.0 . I do like the hack that Eoin found though becuase the files do look good in it. But i still will seek them out at PMA and scream fools at them. LOL

[Guest stnami]

What about the customers. Bad news for Apple (and I told them) is that the M8 users spend more money on photography and also likely have a higher rate of Mac users

.... Uwe....... so Apple say stiff cheddar, What's a m8, does it play music is it a phone?............its got imusic, icanon, imovie, ichat inikon, ioly, iphoto, ieverything and ico ..................................................... the im8 doesn't matter, lieca owners kids will still buy ipods even if it supports leica or not

 

 

 

 

the centre of the universe has moved to the right of Leica

[LJL]

Conrad i have to agree as much as i would like to have there managed system of filing there are other packages that can do that also and C1 pro is my mainstay anyway. Hopefully after PMA i will have a a lot more info on that I hope to be able to share on there new version 4.0 . I do like the hack that Eoin found though becuase the files do look good in it. But i still will seek them out at PMA and scream fools at them. LOL

 

Guy,

Please do give them a bit of dressing down over this. While in general, I do share people's comments about the good and the bad of Aperture, but honestly, there really is no other app that I am aware of that can do quite as much in DAM as Aperture. If you think about the use of all the various ways to keep track of the images, and better yet, really only storing instruction sets for the RAW files, and across folders and projects and ways to print or display, it is a pretty nice app.

 

There is obviously something going on under the surface that few, if any of us really know about. I do think that Apple has a pretty strong commitment to digital photography, despite what some folks intimate. If you look at how long it took for Final Cut Pro to move from a "gee that is a cool app for movies", to pretty much now being a very top end app for doing that, it was not overnight at all. Lots of changes and development over several operating system changes, with more to come.

 

Not trying to be an Apple defender here, though I am pretty invested in the way they do things and the quality of both hardware and software. I just think that Aperture may be a tiger by the tail for Apple at this point. There really needs to be some better product separation between Aperture and iPhoto. Since both share the same RAW conversion algorithms for the most part, plus the RAW viewer with Preview, it is understandable how those things would be in the OS. That does create a problem, but it is a way of using resources in an upgradable way, rather than code bloat, like PS.

 

All that being said, we might think we are yelling into the hurricane, but it is worth our efforts to make sure Apple hears us. Many pros use more than just one camera system. Many non-pros do also, so it really is in their interest to at least support the systems being used by most pros. If they push Aperture as a great studio and sports and wedding and event app, well, Leica plays in all those areas, plus photojournalism, which may be one of the biggest use for Aperture. The ability to shoot, catalog, make adjustments, print, upload, etc., are important. Most of that work is now done with Canons and NIkons and some other cameras, but many of those shooters also have P&S cameras (which have abandoned RAW for the most part), or multiple systems. Apple tapped a key niche with workflow, and they need to stay tapped into that. Building profiles for new cameras should be as much a priority as anything else for the developers on that app.

 

Just my thoughts on this. I stll say we need to keep pressing them.

 

LJ

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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I agree we should not give up pushing them , it does have something to offer and like the saying goes don't put all your eggs in one basket. Right now with raw converters this is certainly the case because most of them have new versions coming or not mature yet or need profiles. It's a real mixed bag out there right now, not a good time to marry anyone of them at the moment.

[ustein]

>not a good time to marry anyone of them at the moment.

 

Never marry a raw converter :-)

 

Uwe

[Giulio Zanni]

I am speechless. Not only it doesn't support the majority of the cameras on the market but Aperture is also bloody slow and expensive for what it gives you. I start to believe that it was a marketing tool just to promote faster computers. Lightroom, here I come.

 

Giulio

[jonoslack]

Jono,

I reread your comments and it really got some hairs to stand up on the back of my neck....not from you, but from Apple. Let's say we believe the reps comments about 5000 requests versus 125,000 requests. Well, since they already have very good working profiles for all of the Canon (and Nikon and others), bulding a new profile is surely not much of a stretch for them. If we were to believe his flippant estimate of 5000 requests about Leica, it would seem they should STILL be paying a lot of attention to that. It is a market segment that may be small, but obviously from recent Leica sales and new models, is not trivial for many photogs that demand higher quality results. Just seems like a brush off statement from him. If Apple really wanted to show the world that Aperture is a professional app, what better way than to show that the digital successors of 35mm photography are able to seamlessy work with great Leica cameras and files into a workflow that very much complements the style, purpose and level of output requirements that Leicaphiles have come to expect? (Sorry for lapsing into a marketspeak, but sometimes that is the only way the semi-technical/marketing guys at these expos are able to understand things.)

 

Your comments and reportage are welcomed, Jono, so please understand that I am not shooting the messenger

 

 

LJ

 

Not shot - but hang on - the request quantities were not literal, they were figurative, his point being 'which would you do first' not 'believe these figures'. I'd be very surprised if there were as many requests in either direction as that - but he either didn't know (I'm sure, or didn't tell me).

 

Interestingly, thinking it through again - if he'd simply said "it'll be there - we're trying to make it the best" then I'd probably be happier - but what he actually implied was that although they would want to get it right - Leica really wasn't important to them - there was even a slight subtext of not wanting to support a flawed camera.

[jonoslack]

Unless you've already paid for Aperture, and I guess a few folks have, my suggestion is to stay away from any situation that requires that Apple have a real commitment to digital photography. It is obvious that they do not and that Adobe does.

 

--Marc

 

Hi Marc

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

 

I have paid for it, and much more than that I've spent 6 months cataloguing 20,000 photos in it.

 

But I think you're right - so now I'm faced with the prospect of re-doing most of that work in Lightroom - not a trivial task.

[wlaidlaw]

I was at Focus on Imaging yesterday. One of the things I did was to sit in on an Aperture training session. It is a very nice program if only........I spoke to one of the guys and asked about DNG support. His reply was "which manufacturer makes the DNG camera" - yes really he did actually say that, so I would not be looking for DNG support any day soon.

 

Wilson

[Eoin]

While I love using Aperture and have yet to find an application that manages my images and workflow as seamless as it did when I was shooting an image format it supported, I like you am disappointed to read the comments from the Apple rep.

 

That being said, I can very easily understand a possible delay for the support might be the fact that since the firmware for the M8 is not ready yet how can Apple program the decode to take into consideration the in camera compensation for cyan corner drift with IR/Cut filters in place. This reason is pure speculation on my part, but given other comments posted here supposedly attributed to sources in the know (little bird comment), M8 support will be forthcoming.

 

I for one have tried Lightroom, yes it's fast and zippy, can be used as an all in one workflow but I don't like the colour output or the skin tones of the images. I like C1 but again the profiles leave a lot to be desired and I'll take a long hard look at C1 v4 when it releases, the talk about it seems interesting. But my heart is in Aperture I just loved it the moment I saw it and moved my whole platform over to Macs PPC G5 and MBP just to be able to use it. For sure it was frustrating at the start with the graphics card issue, I even managed to source an official 9600GT to replace the 6600 which gave some slight improvement, but v1.5 really started to give some performance. Dual displays are such a boon even with the overhead but for me presently there is no other option worth considering. Frustrating for sure, like many things Apple, but ease of use and output results speak volumes for this application, so I'll weather the storm and hope when they finally get a native profile to support the M8 Camera DNG it does not have those ruddy skintones.

[sandymc]

As far as I am aware, all the cyan drift compensation, etc is done in firmware on the raw image, prior to the DNG being created. Whatever software decodes the DNG can't, so far as I know, even tell whether such adjustments were made.

 

A large part of Apple's issue I would think be that the DNG spec allows a lot of different ways to do the same thing e.g., compressed/not compressed, 8-bit/16 bit, look-up table based decoding, etc. Each individual camera will only use one of those ways, and Apple is trying to save money/time by only implementing the DNG features that each specific camera actually uses. Adobe on the other other hand has implemented the whole spec in its entirety, so Lightroom, ACR, etc will work (in theory anyway) with any DNG file. And is also why pre-M8 Adobe converters will decode M8 files

 

Sandy

[LJL]

Not shot - but hang on - the request quantities were not literal, they were figurative, his point being 'which would you do first' not 'believe these figures'. I'd be very surprised if there were as many requests in either direction as that - but he either didn't know (I'm sure, or didn't tell me).

 

Interestingly, thinking it through again - if he'd simply said "it'll be there - we're trying to make it the best" then I'd probably be happier - but what he actually implied was that although they would want to get it right - Leica really wasn't important to them - there was even a slight subtext of not wanting to support a flawed camera.

 

Jono,

I really was not taking the number literally, but more figuratively, as you pointed out. I agree that the implied "tone" was the real sore point. Not letting him off the hook, but my impression is that many of these exhibition events are staffed more by marketing folks that take some liberty to make up answers to suit the situation. I ran into the exact same issue when I confronted Apple folks very early on at an ImagingUSA event. At that time they had the world's worst profiles for the Canon 1DsMkII. The comment I received at that time was along the lines that the 1DsMkII was not as abundant in the hands of photographers as some other camera. I was floored he said this, and asked if he even was familiar with the camera and its purpose. Right after that, Apple undertook a major effort to redo the Canon profiles, as they were getting complaints from many folks about the terrible profiles, colors, etc. Now, the Canon files look quite good done in Aperture.

 

My point is that the photographic community does have some ability to influence the development and focus of these sorts of apps, but it is as much a "squeaking wheel gets the oil" situation. Apple's developers may look at the numbers regarding popular cameras to support, but if they get a lot of requests from smaller market segment cameras, such as Leica, they will pay attention....at some point. And maybe that is the issue....at what point?

 

I do also think that Leica, havng not yet nailed down and released a stable image rendering based on firmware, does not make this process any easier. If Apple took the original M8 files from firmware 1.06 renderings, and built profiles for that, folks would not be happy either. A few months pass and there is firmware 1.09, with some tweaks that could require a bit different profile. As firmware 1.10 comes into view (we all hope), there may be additional issues to wrestle with. So, it is a bit of movng target for some, not all, but some image file profiling. This gets back to the comments by Imants and me earlier about Leica needs to play with Apple also, not just sit back and wait. Not sure what arrangements, if any, may preclude or discourage such efforts (thinking Phase One here), but it does need some attention. (Not saying that the DNG image files cannot be accurately decoded based on firmware used, but from the looks of things, there are going to be some differences in files from v1.10 compared to v1.06, especailly regarding correction for filter use, etc.)

 

Folks like Brian and others that have been able to crack the files quickly for their excellent RAW converters, are approaching things a bit differently, it seems. Apple does have a lot of the conversion tied up in the OS, but they could, and I emphasize that word, COULD be releasing more frequent RAW profiles in the plist updates for their OS. That is NOT difficult for them to do at all. With that in mind, I still think there is some friction between Adobe and Apple, though both deny it, and that sort or stubborness to work together is hurting their customers on both sides.

 

Nobody has yet created the ideal app for workflow, excellent RAW conversions, ability to handle DAM, printing, uploading, etc., etc. Aperture has come very close, despite its stumbles and slowdowns. Ligtroom has attempted to emulate that, in its own way, but still lacks a lot of polish and refinement, despite a year of user input on the beta. C1 has a horrible lack of DAM, and a somewhat "different" idea on workflow. None are perfect.

 

Anyway, sorry to drone on. I just do not want to give up on Aperture yet, as I do think the vision and concept and image renderings are pretty decent....they just need to be pushed a bit more and only we can impact that part.

 

LJ

[tashley]

Hi There

I collared a product manager for Aperture at Focus on Imaging today - he said that an update is imminent, and that several Leica cameras are supported (sorry, I didn't ask which), BUT he said that the M8 is NOT on the list.

 

He did say that he would be amazed if it wasn't supported in the longrun, but that it was an operating system issue, and faced with 125000 requests for support for a 1DmkIII - or 5000 for an M8 . . . . . . . .

 

So, looks like Eoin's lovely patch will be with us for some while

 

 

Hi Jono,

 

I'm afraid apple are tw*ts about this (and I don't mean twits).

 

Back in the day when they offered a superior operating system that had low market penetration, they relied on the goodwill of a lot of customers and software developers who recognized the quality of their product despite the fact that it was a niche one.

 

Apple have become the guy who left the small town, went to the big city and made a fortune and forgot their roots in the process.

 

I still like their computers and their OS but their attitude stinks.

 

It's also commercially stupid: who's going to keep them more afloat in the long run - ten thousand M8 owners who probably also own a DSLR that is supported but won't buy Aperture unless it, like Adobe products, supports all their cameras, and who are more than proportionally influential and important as long-term customers - or 50,000 D50 and Digital Rebel owners?

 

Answers on an e-card please!

 

Best as ever

 

Tim

[spylaw4]

I think someone said way up above in this thread words to the effect that Aperture might be one of Apple's ways to leverage enhanced sales of "faster" computers. I feel, since it does require very good video cards, which not all less recent Macs have fitted ( and can't retrofit), that there may be a grain of truth in this.

I am amazed but not entirely surprised by the Apple rep's apparent dimness re DNG and what it is. I am not surprised by the apparent arrogance towards customers - one of Apple's less endearing traits.

Somehow another way of applying pressure for those that are determined to stick with Aperture needs to be found - maybe at the upcoming Apple Developer's Conference in June?

[wlaidlaw]

Hi Jono,

 

I'm afraid apple are tw*ts about this (and I don't mean twits).

 

Back in the day when they offered a superior operating system that had low market penetration, they relied on the goodwill of a lot of customers and software developers who recognized the quality of their product despite the fact that it was a niche one.

 

Apple have become the guy who left the small town, went to the big city and made a fortune and forgot their roots in the process.

 

I still like their computers and their OS but their attitude stinks.

 

It's also commercially stupid: who's going to keep them more afloat in the long run - ten thousand M8 owners who probably also own a DSLR that is supported but won't buy Aperture unless it, like Adobe products, supports all their cameras, and who are more than proportionally influential and important as long-term customers - or 50,000 D50 and Digital Rebel owners?

 

Answers on an e-card please!

 

Best as ever

 

Tim

 

Another example of Apple incompetence and customer relations

After two 30+ minute phone calls to Apple today, following info given to me by an Apple techie at FOI, I discovered after battling with the issue for over two months, that nobody who has one of the latest 20" Intel 2.1Ghz Duo-Core 2 iMacs with the latest generation 802.11n airport extreme card, has a properly working Airport or network connection. Apple have failed to tell me this in around 25 phone calls to them at my expense since the beginning of December. They currently have no solution to the problem but "are working on it to prepare a firmware and/or software update". Suddenly Leica will not look too shabby, if they can get 1.10 out in the next few weeks, given the relative sizes of the companies. It almost makes me want to use Vista - "now don't be silly!" The only thing that makes me feel better about it is that they have unnecessarily replaced two iMacs, when there was nothing actually wrong with them other than a design flaw.

 

Wilson

[tashley]

Another example of Apple incompetence and customer relations

After two 30+ minute phone calls to Apple today, following info given to me by an Apple techie at FOI, I discovered after battling with the issue for over two months, that nobody who has one of the latest 20" Intel 2.1Ghz Duo-Core 2 iMacs with the latest generation 802.11n airport extreme card, has a properly working Airport or network connection. Apple have failed to tell me this in around 25 phone calls to them at my expense since the beginning of December. They currently have no solution to the problem but "are working on it to prepare a firmware and/or software update". Suddenly Leica will not look too shabby, if they can get 1.10 out in the next few weeks, given the relative sizes of the companies. It almost makes me want to use Vista - "now don't be silly!" The only thing that makes me feel better about it is that they have unnecessarily replaced two iMacs, when there was nothing actually wrong with them other than a design flaw.

 

Wilson

 

Amen.

 

So where in Sussex are you? We must share a Leica dealer! And oddly enough I used to spend my summers in France too.

 

T

 

Tim

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I think someone said way up above in this thread words to the effect that Aperture might be one of Apple's ways to leverage enhanced sales of "faster" computers. I feel, since it does require very good video cards, which not all less recent Macs have fitted ( and can't retrofit), that there may be a grain of truth in this.

I am amazed but not entirely surprised by the Apple rep's apparent dimness re DNG and what it is. I am not surprised by the apparent arrogance towards customers - one of Apple's less endearing traits.

Somehow another way of applying pressure for those that are determined to stick with Aperture needs to be found - maybe at the upcoming Apple Developer's Conference in June?

 

 

Have to be honest i have one of there fastest cards and a very powerful MACPro desktop with 6gb of ram , running Raid O with two 10k raptor hard drives and it is still slow. Now i have a rocket for a machine at a big expense, i feel sorry for anyone running any less of a machine with Aperture.