AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #21 Posted January 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) If your shutter speeds go from 30 secs to 1/8000th, that is a lot to fit onto a little dial... especially if you want 1/3rd stop clicks too. Digital dials let one program increments of 1/3rd or 1/2 stop clicks on some cameras. The same dials that can set shutter or aperture speeds in manual mode can be used to bias exposure or change program range in various auto modes. Digital aperture controls allow one to keep the same f stop when changing lenses and also keep the aperture control in one place. This also allows shutter speed and aperture to be set with the right hand on many cameras leaving the left hand to grasp the lens firmly. Elimination of aperture rings on lenses simplifies construction and makes them easier to weather seal. Being able to see the aperture and shutter speed on the top LCD, rear LCD, and through the viewfinder makes a camera easier to use in various positions. Illumination in the dark is a plus too. Digital controls also communicate information and allow for remote tethered adjustment. (Wireless is possible too.) Note that I am talking about digital control wheels and not menu items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Analog vs menu-based controls. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #22 Posted January 17, 2012 Aanalog by far. I can't tell what anything other than ISO is set at in this photo. And you couldn't fit ISO 100,000 in that little window. I see it is at AE-1 but what shutter speed and f stop is it using? Everything on the left dial is cryptic, confusing and hard to read to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 17, 2012 Share #23 Posted January 17, 2012 Which is why I prefer the top display on the M8.2. Jeff In the dark? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 17, 2012 Share #24 Posted January 17, 2012 In the dark? I don't generally shoot in the dark, but if and when I do I make sure that my camera is ready to go. No different than I did with my film Ms, which I don't think came with lights. But that's also why I routinely say it's good to have choices, to suit different needs. I never claim what's good for me is good for someone else. I only said it's my preference. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 17, 2012 Share #25 Posted January 17, 2012 I don' say I disagree, but it would have been nice if that LCD had been lit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #26 Posted January 17, 2012 If your shutter speeds go from 30 secs to 1/8000th, that is a lot to fit onto a little dial... especially if you want 1/3rd stop clicks too... M9 dial goes from 8s to 4000. Seriously, how many speeds do you need? ...The same dials that can set shutter or aperture speeds in manual mode can be used to bias exposure or change program range in various auto modes..... Why not just rotate the shutter speed or aperture dial for exposure compensation? ...Digital aperture controls allow one to keep the same f stop when changing lenses and also keep the aperture control in one place. This also allows shutter speed and aperture to be set with the right hand on many cameras leaving the left hand to grasp the lens firmly..... Not a huge plus. How hard is it to rotate an aperture ring? It's a one-step process. With digital controls you have to contend with three things: mode setting, look at LCD, set button. ...Elimination of aperture rings on lenses simplifies construction and makes them easier to weather seal... Good point, and as mentioned, too many other dials could impede weatherproofing... But earlier Leicas have proved pretty rugged. And dust still finds its way onto digital sensors. ...Being able to see the aperture and shutter speed on the top LCD, rear LCD, and through the viewfinder makes a camera easier to use in various positions. Illumination in the dark is a plus too. Digital controls also communicate information and allow for remote tethered adjustment. (Wireless is possible too.)... Or you can just look at the dials. How many shots do you make in total darkness anyway? Or via remote control? ...Note that I am talking about digital control wheels and not menu items. OK, digital control wheels can be quick and easy (a non camera example is our Miele washing machine). But you still need to look at two settings: wheel and LCD. Depends on clarity and size of the markings (text, numerals, or graphic). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #27 Posted January 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can't tell what anything other than ISO is set at in this photo. And you couldn't fit ISO 100,000 in that little window. I see it is at AE-1 but what shutter speed and f stop is it using? Everything on the left dial is cryptic, confusing and hard to read to me. It depends what you are used to. Without being explained, an analog watch dial looks pretty odd, too. All those graphic icons on an LCD, or around a mode dial, can be pretty confusing, too. I don't know who would possibly need ISO 100,000. But you could always abbreviate it to 100K. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted January 17, 2012 Share #28 Posted January 17, 2012 Is it necessary to know the exact data? Timing: fast (< 0.01 sec), handheld (<0.04 and >0.01), long (>0.04 and < 0.5), very long (>0.5). ISO: sunlit, normal, darkness. F/stop: low DOF, normal, high DOF. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 17, 2012 Share #29 Posted January 17, 2012 I can't tell what anything other than ISO is set at in this photo. And you couldn't fit ISO 100,000 in that little window. I see it is at AE-1 but what shutter speed and f stop is it using? Everything on the left dial is cryptic, confusing and hard to read to me. Quite simple for me. Allows me to forget the reversible display during shootings. See R-D1's manual page 23 & f. (http://tinyurl.com/7c87684). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 17, 2012 Share #30 Posted January 17, 2012 I cars the trend is more and more to LCD generated "analog style" dial readouts. I'm not sure I would like to see that trend on cameras. On exposure meters I will take an analog readout any time over an LCD display. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted January 17, 2012 Share #31 Posted January 17, 2012 It has to be noted, however, that discrete knobs/dials for every control do have two drawbacks: a) they are more expensive to build if there are a lot of things to control they introduce additional holes/gaps in the body or lens, which make for poorer weather-resistance (or require more weatherproofing). c) they make remote control vastly more complicated and expensive, because the knobs and dials have to move in response to the remote controls - or else the actual settings inside the camera will be different from what's shown on the controls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #32 Posted January 17, 2012 M9 dial goes from 8s to 4000. Seriously, how many speeds do you need? Why not just rotate the shutter speed or aperture dial for exposure compensation? Not a huge plus. How hard is it to rotate an aperture ring? It's a one-step process. With digital controls you have to contend with three things: mode setting, look at LCD, set button. Good point, and as mentioned, too many other dials could impede weatherproofing... But earlier Leicas have proved pretty rugged. And dust still finds its way onto digital sensors. Or you can just look at the dials. How many shots do you make in total darkness anyway? Or via remote control? OK, digital control wheels can be quick and easy (a non camera example is our Miele washing machine). But you still need to look at two settings: wheel and LCD. Depends on clarity and size of the markings (text, numerals, or graphic). I am not going to try to argue with you if you don't see what I am talking about. However I do need to go to at least 30 seconds very often and I like 1/3rd stop indents. When I talk about ISO dials going to 100,000, yes you could use 100K if you don't want to risk confusing it with 100, But considering ISO is usually expressed in 1/3rd stops, that will require a pretty large wheel and will also make auto ISO pretty difficult. I don't want to look at a dial or lens ring to figure out my settings. I generally want to keep my eye to the viewfinder. If the camera is on a tripod, sometimes I can't get my eye to the viewfinder in which case I use the rear LCD or set it tethered. It is very common for me to work at night or have a camera in a position where I'd need to get on a ladder to see the f stop dial on a lens or the shutter speed dial on top of the camera and break out a flashlight. (Yes, I used to have to do that.) Besides, a lens ring generally needs to be set at A if you want auto aperture. So you'll still need to look on a display somewhere to see the actual f stop. The same is true with A on the shutter control. I will only say that I used cameras with traditional shutter and aperture controls for decades and much prefer the electronic control interface of pro DSLRs. I don't have to look at any of the control wheels to use them and this makes it faster and easier for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 17, 2012 Share #33 Posted January 17, 2012 Back to Andy's car analogy - Engineers found out long ago that an analog, sweeping speedometer was faster and easier to read than a digital one. I think it was Buick that built a sports car with a touch screen control on the dash to the right of the driver. Didn't work out. Ever try to pay attention to driving while feeling for a pixel? I don't mind using the Info button on the M9 to read certain camera conditions - it shows only those things I need to occasionally see anyway. I like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #34 Posted January 17, 2012 Quite simple for me. Allows me to forget the reversible display during shootings. See R-D1's manual page 23 & f. (http://tinyurl.com/7c87684). Yeah I had to read the manual to see what that left dial means. This isn't exactly a "traditional" control interface. Most digital photographers wouldn't have any idea. I like that it says that when indicating 500 exposures remaining it might actually be 999. Right there you see how having hard information engraved on a dial locks you in... especially if firmware updates can offer additional features. I don't get why they didn't at least choose more traditional icons for color balance. And you have to be able to see the top of the camera to read it and the other controls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #35 Posted January 17, 2012 Back to Andy's car analogy - Engineers found out long ago that an analog, sweeping speedometer was faster and easier to read than a digital one. I think it was Buick that built a sports car with a touch screen control on the dash to the right of the driver. Didn't work out. Ever try to pay attention to driving while feeling for a pixel? I don't mind using the Info button on the M9 to read certain camera conditions - it shows only those things I need to occasionally see anyway. I like it. You are mixing up two different things. There is no reason why mechanical/digital input can't be more ergonomic than purely mechanical input. My car has electronically boosted and adjustable power steering and electronic throttle and clutch control that can change in the "sport" mode. This uses digital technology. Additionally, photographers were used to reading specific numbers (f stop, shutter speed, aperture) not seeing a dial display with a sweep arm. Airplanes are replacing mechanical controls and dial displays with electronics and pilots seem to be able to deal with it. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/170428-analog-vs-menu-based-controls/?do=findComment&comment=1900678'>More sharing options...
wattsy Posted January 17, 2012 Share #36 Posted January 17, 2012 I can't tell what anything other than ISO is set at in this photo. And you couldn't fit ISO 100,000 in that little window. I see it is at AE-1 but what shutter speed and f stop is it using? Everything on the left dial is cryptic, confusing and hard to read to me. Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse but the camera is switched off - hence, no exposures remaining, no battery level, etc. Being at AE-1, it is using AE mode, so the shutter speed isn't set. It's really not hard to work out though I don't disagree that a well designed LCD top panel with the same information would probably be more legible at a glance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 17, 2012 Share #37 Posted January 17, 2012 ...I like that it says that when indicating 500 exposures remaining it might actually be 999. Right there you see how having hard information engraved on a dial locks you in... 2GB cards is a maximum with this cam so more than 200 raw files is a no no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #38 Posted January 17, 2012 Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse but the camera is switched off - hence, no exposures remaining, no battery level, etc. Being at AE-1, it is using AE mode, so the shutter speed isn't set. It's really not hard to work out though I don't disagree that a well designed LCD top panel with the same information would probably be more legible at a glance. I am not being deliberately obtuse. Until I read the manual I had absolutely no idea what the left dial indicated - on or off. (Icons - a circle, another one with a circle inside a circle and a little tongue, the other a circle with an X in it, etc.) I guessed that the E-F was the frame counter not the power level and didn't know that the 0-500 (logarithmic) dial could count remaining frames. I have nothing against it if someone likes it and understands it. I bet this is a lot more expensive to make, and less rugged, than simply using an LCD. In any case it must be controlled digitally. In AE mode, I hope the shutter speed is displayed in the finder. That is where I generally want to look while setting the camera so why would I care if there is also a traditional shutter speed dial and this complicated mechanical indicator? Despite the popularity of traditional watch faces, if you only want to know the time, a digital clock is faster and more accurate to read than an analog one. I think one challenge in camera design is to implement ergonomic controls, as well as possible, for all of the new features that are included. I would have loved to have remote digital controls for my view camera lenses... many of which were hard to see and set accurately. (This is available now and various electronic and mechanical approaches came out earlier.) The traditional controls on them were pretty lousy. (On Compur shutters it was pretty easy to bump the synch from X to M and then you were really screwed.) Most camera controls, Leica included, evolved simply because that was the only place where the controls could directly perform their functions and easily be implemented. Not necessarily because it was the "best" way to do it. Displaying shutter speed and f stop inside the viewfinder started at least back in the 60s. Nikon saw the need for aperture linkage back in the late 50s. Digital interfaces are just taking this concept a few steps further and there may never be agreement on which combination of buttons, screens, dials, and their locations is best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted January 17, 2012 Share #39 Posted January 17, 2012 I can't tell what anything other than ISO is set at in this photo. And you couldn't fit ISO 100,000 in that little window. Return DIN scale, 51 DIN = 102,400 ISO/ASA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 17, 2012 Share #40 Posted January 17, 2012 Return DIN scale, 51 DIN = 102,400 ISO/ASA So let's make it so that I am not familiar with anything the camera displays. Great if you are used to thinking logarithmically. I also have an old Graflex that uses arbitrary numbers instead of shutter speeds. You have to look at a chart to see what they stand for. It is really handy that the ISO display moves around and is sometimes upside down or sideways too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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