ho_co Posted November 27, 2011 Share #141 Posted November 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...3. I personally want an M without a meter, RF, or digital review ... Without a rangefinder, it's not an M. M is short for Messsucher. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 27, 2011 Posted November 27, 2011 Hi ho_co, Take a look here Movie Mode and the M10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rick Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share #142 Posted November 27, 2011 Without a rangefinder, it's not an M. M is short for Messsucher. Hey Howard, what if the viewfinder was an excellent quality electronic view finder like the available 1.4MP one that is out now, or better? This would certainly be easier to focus and would give a true representation of the image in many ways. It would save a lot of space so the M could be smaller (lots of LUF's want that) and it would allow more room for a larger battery (lots want that) and it could allow for more room for processing power etc. (lots want that). Also, it would require much less servicing and everyone wants that. It is clear to me that this is advantages and that this is the direction Leica is going to take the M line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted November 27, 2011 Share #143 Posted November 27, 2011 ^This describes exactly the mirrorless EVF camera Leica talked about, possibly M-mount Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 27, 2011 Share #144 Posted November 27, 2011 Alan, That sounds great! Which software did you use for the perspective control? K-H. I used some software that is for turning a cell phone camera into a scanner called "Droid Scan Lite." The function I used in it is intended for you to shoot a business card and then lets you straighten it. But it works on camera images too and is free. It would be nice to find something a bit better, but this was the first one I could find and it is free and works ok. My HTC Amaze Android phone automatically does GPS tagging and creates a folder titled "Location." When I click on that folder it shows a map and indicates where each image was taken. https://market.android.com/details?id=net.sylde.Sun&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsIm5ldC5zeWxkZS5TdW4iXQ.. Additionally, I use various sun tracking software on it that lets me understand where the sun will be any time of the day on any date so that I can figure out the best time to shoot a structure. I even have one that lets me stand in the doorway and look out to see the track of the sun. You can even use this indoors to figure out when the sun will shine through a particular window. (Sun Surveyor, Sun Board Sunrise Sunset, Sun Path.sylde.net) The cell phone is very useful for scouting but of course I sometimes need a much wider lens even for scouting - but it can automatically shoot sweep panoramas for that and the camera has a digital zoom for tighter shots. So when you combine the camera features with GPS, compass and sun tracking features, it is a pretty powerful scouting tool although I'll still use a regular camera for scouting interiors. (My assistant said that my interior scouting photos are often better than other photographer's final images, so I have to stop making them so good.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted November 27, 2011 Share #145 Posted November 27, 2011 Mr. Stefan Daniel: "Offering additional functions such as video and live view would extend the usability of the M camera significantly. CMOS is a prerequisite for it, therefore it will be the technology of the future." Sorry it was Stefan Daniel. I for some reason get his name mixed up with Kaufman. But anyway, kind of hard to misinterpret this. Thanks for the reference. In fact, that entire interview is kind of interesting in its insight as to how Leica knows its failed with the M8/M9 and is looking to take a new direction with digital. they can do it and everyone else is doing it and I want it Is that not a reasonable argument for anything? My father had several missions where he needed a light meter to work reasonably and an external one would've been inconvenient, and I know his input (he wrote a letter to Leica) was in some way responsible for the M6 getting a meter -- though no doubt everyone else getting one had an effect as well. I expect the same sort of input to lead to movie mode, as now I'm regularly tasked with movies and stills and anything beyond an M is inconvenient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danedit28 Posted November 27, 2011 Share #146 Posted November 27, 2011 If, Leica can put together something like this in the new M10, the video quality should be fantastic. No reason that it can't rival the 5DII. And, the lenses should add even more quality to distance the image from the 5DII. Rick, would the video really be fantastic if you're equaling the h.264 compression scheme of 3+ years ago? Shouldn't moore's law give us something better? And where would that development come from? Regarding the Leica lenses... I think we already know that answer to that as there's a reason the Leica 35mm primes are the most expensive and most sought after lenses in the world. Also, I didn't do a forum search but how many people say you resemble Bruce Campbell? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 27, 2011 Share #147 Posted November 27, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Please help me understand the issue. Let's assume for argument's sake there was a digital Leica M camera which was in most respects just the same as the M9, with the only difference that you could record movies with it. Of course, this would require some technical changes such as another sensor. In what particular way would the resulting device be better than any other movie recording device? Would it even be as good as other devices which have been on the market for some time which have been designed for the taking of movies? The form factor, the very shape as well as some other particulars of the M camera would make it somewhat awkward for movie taking, I'd think. Well a cell phone or a p&s is not the "best" way to shoot video but that doesn't stop the cameras from having it and people from shooting video with them. Heck an 8x10 is a much better camera for shooting landscapes than any 35mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 27, 2011 Share #148 Posted November 27, 2011 It is clear to me that this is advantages and that this is the direction Leica is going to take the M line. I'm pretty ambivalent about the video mode but it isn't clear to me that the EVF has advantages and I truly hope that this isn't the "direction Leica is going to take the M line". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted November 27, 2011 Share #149 Posted November 27, 2011 Hey Howard, what if the viewfinder was an excellent quality electronic view finder like the available 1.4MP one that is out now, or better? This would certainly be easier to focus and would give a true representation of the image in many ways. It would save a lot of space so the M could be smaller (lots of LUF's want that) and it would allow more room for a larger battery (lots want that) and it could allow for more room for processing power etc. (lots want that). Also, it would require much less servicing and everyone wants that. It is clear to me that this is advantages and that this is the direction Leica is going to take the M line. Noooo! But, if the M10 had live view, possibly Leica could redo the optical finder it has now so it would be easier for the user to self-calibrate. More accurate frame lines (projected LCD?) that self-adjust for near and far would also be a great improvement. But I don't care how many billions of pixels an EVF comes with it's still not the same as an optical vf - to me it's still the equivalent of watching a small TV which is blah and hard on the eye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share #150 Posted November 27, 2011 I want the chance to backtrack just a little. When Stefan Daniel said: "I think that the quality of the 1.4MP finders is already very good, and sometimes even more accurate than an optical finder, think of white balance or exposure. Over time, as technology is improving, optical finders will get less and less important. The X100 finder is a very nice concept and well executed." I was mistaken, he was talking about the mirrorless camera not the M. But, at some point it may make sense for the M line and if done well I wouldn't mind it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 27, 2011 Share #151 Posted November 27, 2011 I want the chance to backtrack just a little. When Stefan Daniel said: "I think that the quality of the 1.4MP finders is already very good, and sometimes even more accurate than an optical finder, think of white balance or exposure. Over time, as technology is improving, optical finders will get less and less important. The X100 finder is a very nice concept and well executed." I was mistaken, he was talking about the mirrorless camera not the M. But, at some point it may make sense for the M line and if done well I wouldn't mind it. Sony's current EVF is even higher res than that and looked very good to me. NEX-5N Tiltable Viewfinder | Electronic Viewfinder | FDA-EV1S | Sony USA It does have a lot of negative reviews though - people complaining that this viewfinder is not compatible with the earlier models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share #152 Posted November 27, 2011 Rick, would the video really be fantastic if you're equaling the h.264 compression scheme of 3+ years ago? Shouldn't moore's law give us something better? And where would that development come from? Regarding the Leica lenses... I think we already know that answer to that as there's a reason the Leica 35mm primes are the most expensive and most sought after lenses in the world. Also, I didn't do a forum search but how many people say you resemble Bruce Campbell? You keep coming at this from the pro-level you see every day. All I want is good consumer video just like I have good consumer still picture ability delivered to me in my M9. Bruce Campbell? Only if I stick my chin out... like I'm doing here on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share #153 Posted November 27, 2011 Sony's current EVF is even higher res than that and looked very good to me. NEX-5N Tiltable Viewfinder | Electronic Viewfinder | FDA-EV1S | Sony USA It does have a lot of negative reviews though - people complaining that this viewfinder is not compatible with the earlier models. Yes, that is 2.+MP and it is very good and it has a diopter and... it is small enough to fit in the M and it is probably off the shelf now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted November 27, 2011 Share #154 Posted November 27, 2011 Yes, that is 2.+MP and it is very good and it has a diopter and... it is small enough to fit in the M and it is probably off the shelf now. Don't forget that it adds 26 grams of weight to the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share #155 Posted November 27, 2011 Noooo! But, if the M10 had live view, possibly Leica could redo the optical finder it has now so it would be easier for the user to self-calibrate. More accurate frame lines (projected LCD?) that self-adjust for near and far would also be a great improvement. But I don't care how many billions of pixels an EVF comes with it's still not the same as an optical vf - to me it's still the equivalent of watching a small TV which is blah and hard on the eye. I like the first part of your post and agree that this approach could be nice. I'm still not sure about the EVF in actual use, but at some point the technology is going to be so good that it should provide an acceptable view for the few seconds you look into the finder. I believe it can be designed to be even better and be less hard on the eyes than the current OVF. I know there are many here that have trouble with the current range finder because of the state of their aging eyes. My eyesight's fine, for now, but I do find myself squinting into the thing to line up the patch from time to time. Keep an open mind... ps I really like your shot in the book Taking Aim, on page 76. That mosh pit shot is just extreme and makes me think about what it was like to be a teenager and be at concerts that bordered on slightly organized bedlam. And, it is one of just a couple photos that GN picked to run across 2-pages. When Graham Nash was at Ste. Michelle for a concert a couple years ago I walked up to the stage at the end of a set and talked to him for a few seconds and he signed my book. Seemed like a really nice guy. Someday, maybe I can connect with you here in Seattle and get you to add your signature to my copy of the book over a cup of coffee (or stronger) ... if you don't mind. Rick (Campbell)... just kidding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 27, 2011 Share #156 Posted November 27, 2011 The M10 will still be a rangefinder hopefully. You know this optical thing having nothing to do with electronics. No problem to use an accessory EVF though provided i don't have to use it when i don't need it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted November 27, 2011 Share #157 Posted November 27, 2011 Hi Rick, Thanks and sure thing on the book signing. It was fun hanging with Nash, Diltz, Marshall, and all of the other great photogs for the opening of Taking Aim. I'll show you my other books (solo monographs) if/when we hook up. As far as EVF goes I'm sure it will get to the point someday. I haven't seen a Nex 7 so can't comment on that. Funny thing is I picked up a Fuji X10 the other day, partly on the strength of it having an optical vf. Haven't used the vf once! And other than making short movies with it I find it the M9 to be so much more satisfying though the X10 impresses me nonetheless and very good for low light. Anyway, my contact info is on my website. Take care, Charles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted November 28, 2011 Share #158 Posted November 28, 2011 Hey Howard, what if the viewfinder was an excellent quality electronic view finder like the available 1.4MP one that is out now, or better? ... Purely a semantic point, directed at a specific post by Sp12, Rick. There are many changes I'd like to see. I think a complete re-think of the camera is in order, preferably still able to take at least some M lenses. Movie Mode, EVF, focus peaking display of course; AF option would be likely of course. My only point is that it won't be an "M" if it doesn't have the rangefinder. Needs some other name. Maybe "K" for "Klasse" (or "Kasse" ), perhaps. Or "G" for "Good luck with this." It needs to be as different from the M series as the M3 was from screw-mount, or R8 from R7. M10 should have Movie Mode if it's well implemented, but Leica needs to break out of this money-making trend and really start something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted November 28, 2011 Share #159 Posted November 28, 2011 1. Interesting effective double post.2. Leica has basically trashed the "M-philosophy" when they came out with the M8 and M9 without designing them to be ideal for digital. 3. I personally want an M without a meter, RF, or digital review so it can be as simple and perfectly in tune as the old M philosophy is. Until that point I want them to continue with the "frankenMs" with as many logical features and conveniences as they can fit. Luckily, I'm getting that second wish with the current M8/9, and will probably get that in the M10 under Leica's new management if they want six fold growth. 4. For those who want a halfway M with halfway features, they can keep the current M9. It's a decent compromise between the old M philosophy and modern tech. The problem here, is interpretation of what the document "M-philosophy" says. I am basing it on Leica's actions over the last 50 years. You are basing it on your desires. We will see how Leica sees it's self in the decades to come. Leica does not have new Management, they have new investors. Majority ownership still is in the same hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share #160 Posted November 28, 2011 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/167143-movie-mode-and-the-m10/?do=findComment&comment=1855959'>More sharing options...
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