Be sure you are buying a Leica lens?

[La Morte]

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Has anyone gone onto a web-sight/address and typed in the serial number of a Leica lens he wants/are about to buy?

In other words where will you go to see if it is not a grey product, and how long do they take to respond back?

With so manny grey products around can we take it on face value? And they make the grey stuff so good you will not be able to tell the difference just by looking or trying it on you camera!

[IkarusJohn]

I can't imagine a grey Leica lens, sorry. Too complex, and just too obvious (once the lens is in your hands, of course)

[bill]

Do you both know what "grey product" actually means? It is not physically grey, nor is it counterfeit. It is a product that has not come to market through the formal importers in that country. It may therefore not be covered by warranty.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[ianman]

of course things get complicated if the item in question really is grey coloured and you buy it from Grays :eek:

[jankap]

Do you both know what "grey product" actually means? It is not physically grey, nor is it counterfeit. It is a product that has not come to market through the formal importers in that country. It may therefore not be covered by warranty.

 

And possibly tax hasn't be paid for.

This would not bother me.

Jan

[adan]

Cameras have not generally been susceptible to serious counterfeiting, because they are literally transparent - you can see inside the lenses and viewfinders, you can see the colored lens surface coatings. By the time someone has gone to the trouble to fake ALL the visible parts, they've spent so much time and effort that there is little profit left over. Those purple and yellow lens coatings require seriously expensive, high-tech vapor-deposition machines.

 

One could mention the Russian Leica-like cameras with the Leica name added by entrepreneurs - but those worked only because someone had gone to the trouble to make functioning (mostly) cameras in the first place. Faking one 70-year-old camera to look like another 70-year-old camera isn't quite the same as trying to counterfeit new products.

 

Nor is stamping out "Rolex" cases and putting a generic quartz clockwork inside, or copying designer clothes. Those are products where the value is entirely in the form and "name". People who buy those kinds of fakes know they are getting a fake - their goal is to fool other people.

 

We joke about the Leica "Red Dot" - but for the most part, people buying Leicas are not doing it to impress or fool other people. They are buying the functionality, not the appearance.

 

As to gray market - 1) Leica is fairly stiff about maintaining a global price, so there is less room for "arbitrage" between one market and another (except for transient currency variations), and 2) all Leicas come with an international warranty, so if someone gets a camera without a "local" warranty, it can always go to Solms for repairs.

 

To get a gray market, one has to have a global company that is severely discounting their products in a specific region for local competitive reasons, such that it pays to buy things there and gray-import them to a market where the official price is higher.

[Mark2]

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Buying gray LEICA lens is ok. Don't worry they don't break down often. The problem is that LEICA ships their lenses all over the world. With the economic crisis, people in Europe and USA may not be able to afford these lens. As such they are sold back as gray to Asia. They are still the original. LEICA will still repair them if it breaks down.

[algrove]

Is not the point of the "Leica Passport", no matter where you bought the item and no matter where you are in the world, the item is still under Leica warranty. IMHO having the "Leica Passport" makes the term "gray" when discussing Leica gear, something of a moot point. Or did I miss something?

[IkarusJohn]

Do you both know what "grey product" actually means? It is not physically grey, nor is it counterfeit. It is a product that has not come to market through the formal importers in that country. It may therefore not be covered by warranty.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sorry, Bill, but this is not quite the point.

 

As Andy explains, "grey" is often used to describe both counterfeit and cross border transactions. I agree, it properly relates to the second, but the opening post shows the confusion. Grey products will function like any other product, as it comes from the same factory.

 

Like Apple, Leica maintains global pricing, so scoring a saving is not really that feasible. Leica is good at factoring in different local taxes to maintain prices, but there are anomalies; particularly when you live in remote place, or you get a shortage. In those cases, you get a Noct advertised here, list, for USD 12,000. In that case, I'd import from Europe tax free, or from the US, and still be a couple of grand ahead. Also, in places where list pricing is not particularly relevant, like China, where they seem quite happy to overcharge.

 

It's also worth remembering that in the post GATT, WTO world, members cannot impose border restrictions. They can impose GST/VAT or duties (which are supposed to be phased out). Granted, the GATT is a government to government agreement, but it has domestic impact where appointed local importing agents try to stop parallel imports, or there are restrictive practices. As I recall a car dealer in Europe got caught on this under equivalent EU legislation.

 

So, in reply to your comment, Bill (if I can be a little more respectful), yes I am very familiar with the issue. If you buy from an authorized reseller in another jurisdiction, there should be no impact on any warranty - the idea of "local warranty" and "international warranty" should be long dead.

 

Cheers

John

[Bill W]

Sorry, Bill, but this is not quite the point.

 

As Andy explains, "grey" is often used to describe both counterfeit and cross border transactions. I agree, it properly relates to the second, but the opening post shows the confusion. Grey products will function like any other product, as it comes from the same factory.

 

Like Apple, Leica maintains global pricing, so scoring a saving is not really that feasible. Leica is good at factoring in different local taxes to maintain prices, but there are anomalies; particularly when you live in remote place, or you get a shortage. In those cases, you get a Noct advertised here, list, for USD 12,000. In that case, I'd import from Europe tax free, or from the US, and still be a couple of grand ahead. Also, in places where list pricing is not particularly relevant, like China, where they seem quite happy to overcharge.

 

It's also worth remembering that in the post GATT, WTO world, members cannot impose border restrictions. They can impose GST/VAT or duties (which are supposed to be phased out). Granted, the GATT is a government to government agreement, but it has domestic impact where appointed local importing agents try to stop parallel imports, or there are restrictive practices. As I recall a car dealer in Europe got caught on this under equivalent EU legislation.

 

So, in reply to your comment, Bill (if I can be a little more respectful), yes I am very familiar with the issue. If you buy from an authorized reseller in another jurisdiction, there should be no impact on any warranty - the idea of "local warranty" and "international warranty" should be long dead.

 

Cheers

John

 

In the USA I have purchased many Leica items from USA dealers that sell "Imported" and they are a little less expensive but you know that they do not come with the USA warranty. These same dealers give the same warranty and you ship a problem to them directly. My experience has been very positive if I have had any problems which as far as a Leica lens is concerned have been zero.

[IkarusJohn]

USA warranties are often written in a slightly way due to consumer protection legislation, and liability concerns.

 

Shouldn't affect the quality of the equipment, or defect repairs, or service generally for that matter.

 

Cheers

John

[brill64]

in hk "grey import" refers to cameras and lenses imported independently by dealers or private resellers who have bought them from solms or elsewhere in europe. they are slightly cheaper than the official import but only in some cases, it depends on availability or demand and in some cases can be higher than the officially set price. it is still warranted though. if you have any issue then you must ship the product directly back to the factory yourself (if you bought it from a private re-seller) or to the original dealer (who will send it back to the factory for you). either way, it's still repaired under warranty. if you take it to the official importer, they will charge you handling and shipping fees but you can still have it repaired under leica's international warranty if it's within the two year warranty period. although more expensive, i prefer to buy with the official local warranty because it means any issues can be fixed locally with the minimum of fuss or time loss.

 

"counterfeit" obviously refers to products that are not leica's own. thinking about it logically, with regard to brand new leica products these would be a black hole for any counterfeiter to try and produce successfully or more importantly profitably. whilst gucci, prada, chanel and louis vuitton have counterfeit security teams to protect their high-end products, i have never yet seen or heard of a brand new counterfeit leica camera or lens, although it is plausible to think that they could exist. i've heard of original leica glass elements being swapped with fake ones but to what purpose i still cannot fathom, so i think it's an urban myth. certainly i have seen modified leica products but these are the original product modified in some way either by the owner or dealer to make it more expensive looking, individual or collectable and mostly applies to bodies more than lenses.

 

i once saw a prototype m9 but in the body of an m8 and marked as an m8 on the front, a certificate stating it had a lifetime warranty and a special serial number being sold for an incredible price. i think this is where you will find the counterfeiter's money is to be made and where people are most likely to get cleverly duped. i've seen very old and battered, brassed m3's/black mp's changing hands at exorbitant prices and whether they are wholly or even partly original or not takes great skill, knowledge and trust on the part of the buyer, who is usually a collector. as always, it's buyer beware with such items.

 

unbelievably, in a recent lifestyle magasine here talking about wealthy "shoppers" visiting the official leica store and purchasing a brand new m9-P with summilux lens and later complaining to the dealer, "why doesn't such an expensive camera have autofocus?", when they found none of their pictures were in focus because they didn't know they had to do it manually. it remains to be said that there are always going to be people with more money than common sense and it is from these whom the counterfeiters will eventually make their mark.

[andybarton]

There are no counterfeit M cameras or lenses. Counterfeiters do their work on things that are easy to make and sell.

 

Grey imports are completely different and have nothing to do with counterfeiting. They are goods that a imported and/or sold through unofficial channels.

 

I was given an OM2 for my 18th birthday. It was grey, but came with a 50 f1.4 in lieu of the standard f1.8 for the same money. The dealer obtained it through Canada and offered his own warranty. It is still a great camera, 32 years later.

[La Morte]

It is completely naive to think that a Leica product can't be counterfeited.I have worked for a government intelligence agency for 20 years and have seen very strange things, from Rolex watches to cigarettes and even Range Rovers so well counterfeited that the VIN numbers had to be communicated with Land Rover London to establish they were indeed not the real thing. And yes,- i have seen cameras and lenses that was counterfeited. Anyway,- not the point, i gess no one know of a web adress to check Leica products:(

Andy and Adan, you need to go to the East on a holiday and you will know there is NOTHING that cannot or have not been counterfeited.

[stunsworth]

It is completely naive to think that a Leica product can't be counterfeited

 

Of course it _could_ be, just as you could have a fake Porsche 911 or Boeing 747. The point is it hasn't happened.

[andybarton]

If there had been counterfeit Leica cameras or lenses, we'd have heard about them.

 

Counterfeiters want to make products that they can make very cheaply and sell very quickly, at low prices. Counterfeiting a Lacoste t-shirt or a pair of Nike trainers is one thing - a fully functioning Leica M9 is a completely different matter all together.

 

The Russians could only make fake screw-thread Leicas because they requisitioned some of the factory after the war. They never made fake Leica Ms, because they didn't have the machinery to do it.

[pico]

[....]Andy and Adan, you need to go to the East on a holiday and you will know there is NOTHING that cannot or have not been counterfeited.

 

There's a story of a Chinese entrepreneur who built a factory to make counterfeit widgets. It was beside a mountain. One day he ventured to the other side of the mountain and found an exact copy of his factory making the same product.

 

About counterfeit late model Leicas - I'd make a strong gentleman's bet that no enterprise would dare make a fake M because it would be too easy to distinguish from the real thing - OTOH, I'm sure there's a market for those who don't care.

[IkarusJohn]

I have worked for a government intelligence agency for 20 years and have seen very strange things, from Rolex watches to cigarettes and even Range Rovers so well counterfeited that the VIN numbers had to be communicated with Land Rover London to establish they were indeed not the real thing. And yes,- i have seen cameras and lenses that was counterfeited. Anyway,- not the point, i gess no one know of a web adress to check Leica products:(

 

Really? A Range Rover? Wow! I'll take your word for it.

 

Having worked and traveled over the Far East and SE Asia reasonably consistently for the last 30 years, I simply cannot imagine why a counterfeiter would go to the effort of producing knock-offs of such quality. It simply wouldn't be worth it.

 

A crap teeshirt with a fancy label is something else entirely.

 

If you're worried about the authenticity of any Leica kit you want to buy, email Solms - they have always confirmed the provenance of any second hand Leica kit I've bought (75 & 28 Crons). The new stuff I've bought from Meister in Berlin and Ken Hansen - even the world's most deluded conspiracy theorist is not going to suggest that they are fakes.

 

Cheers

John

[shard]

The real danger is buying old lenses where a few are cannibalized to make a mint looking lens. It looks good but it is completely uncalibrated.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[earleygallery]

I cant believe the counterfeit Range Rover, I mean, someone made an exact copy?? Possibly they tried to sell an older model as a newer one or something but surely not a complete fake copy?!

 

The OP is worried about fake Leicas so can rest assured that, for now, there have been no fake M bodies or lenses. To avoid grey imports just buy from a registered Leica dealer (you will have come back if they sell you a grey import) not that a grey import may be perfectly fine if the deal is good.

 

Fakes are getting better, I understand that there are fake iPhones now, but it's doubtful the fakers will ever bother with a niche/specialist product such as Leica.