Dutch Posted August 17, 2011 Share #1 Posted August 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) For a while now I have been looking at getting a Leica M and recently decided it would have to be an M6. The reason being it has the right price and an internal light meter. While I will likely be getting one towards the end of the year, I am here reading and learning, and recently learned about “Sunny 16”. That got me thinking. While the M6 is great, I love the looks of the MP a lot more, and noticed the M2 has a very similar design. That got me wondering if it is practical to simply use Sunny 16 and not bother with a light meter at all. I want to use a Leica M specifically for black and white photography, with as little fuss as possible. Would an M2 and some practice on applying Sunny 16 work? Are there people who use this? If it’s practical, is the M2 better built than the M6? (I understand it is.) (Sorry if this is similar to the other thread, but I didn’t want to drag that one off topic.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 Hi Dutch, Take a look here M2 and Sunny 16. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
!Nomad64 Posted August 17, 2011 Share #2 Posted August 17, 2011 For a while now I have been looking at getting a Leica M and recently decided it would have to be an M6. The reason being it has the right price and an internal light meter. While I will likely be getting one towards the end of the year, I am here reading and learning, and recently learned about “Sunny 16”. Here you can find something more elaborated: Ultimate Exposure Computer That got me thinking. While the M6 is great, I love the looks of the MP a lot more, and noticed the M2 has a very similar design. That got me wondering if it is practical to simply use Sunny 16 and not bother with a light meter at all. Yes, it is. I do that myself all the time. The only difference being that I use an M3 and that for the sake of safety I also got a Leicameter that I use when in doubt, to eventually amend its reading based on what I think it's better. I want to use a Leica M specifically for black and white photography, with as little fuss as possible. Would an M2 and some practice on applying Sunny 16 work? Are there people who use this? Yes, doing so will teach you a lot. If memory serves me well Bill Palmer of this forum uses Sunny16 all the times. I do too with the above precautions. If it’s practical, is the M2 better built than the M6? (I understand it is.) It is. Cheers, Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 17, 2011 Share #3 Posted August 17, 2011 Somebody call? Yes, I do. I bought a Gossen Digisix years ago and realised that I never used it so it sits in a drawer in its box. One day it will make it to eBay. I use Sunny-16 all the time with my M2 and my IID. I always use the same film stock - 400CN - so I don't have to think about it. This thread does neatly sum it up: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/film-forum/75689-m2-users-how-do-you-meter.html Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiZZ Posted August 17, 2011 Share #4 Posted August 17, 2011 I have both an M2 and an M6 classic, and I realized that the M2 is smoother on the film advance, as well as the patch is sharper and brighter. Don't know if it's my particular models or if they need servicing, but that's what I get. I actually bought an M2 first, then an M6 because I needed a light meter. I found it a bit difficult to shoot indoors and in low-light (majority of my work is like that) without a light meter. I have a handheld meter, but again, practicality being the word. I still use Sunny 16 on my M2. Once I get another lens I'm going to be working with only those two cameras. M2 for outdoors, M6 for indoors/low-light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted August 17, 2011 Share #5 Posted August 17, 2011 I have an M2 and other manual non metered cameras. I often rely on Sunny 16 metering. It will take some practice for sure, but - especially with B&W film - there is often enough latitude to allow for some margin of error. I find that in built up areas in the UK Sunny 11 is more accurate (that is, on the brightest days f11 is the correct aperture for the corresponding ISO/shutter speed). Personally I would recommend buying a hand held light meter as well, whichever camera you choose, and one that allows for incident light readings. Then you have the best of all worlds. You can still rely on Sunny 16, use the meter to spot check your own judgement to help train yourself, and incident readings are great for tricky light conditions/contrasty subjects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
minks73 Posted August 17, 2011 Share #6 Posted August 17, 2011 I just picked up an M2 myself and have been trying out the Sunny 16 method myself. It takes some getting used to, and I have a Voigtlander meter that I can use to "check" my estimate. I know other people that take photos whether by Sunny 16 or even "feel". I think B&W should be easier as it has more latitude than color. Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted August 17, 2011 Share #7 Posted August 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I usually use a meter (either in the M6 or separetely in the case of the M3 and III) then mentally check it against Sunny 16, and if they don't mathch I sort out why! Sunny 16 is ok for 'normal' subjects, a meter is indispensible for NOT normal subjects! Especially for slide film. Even so for tricky situations (high contrast etc) I bracket. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share #8 Posted August 18, 2011 Thanks for all the responses, very helpful! I think I will have to carefully consider the option of going for an M2 and using Sunny 16/11. The Leica is really meant as a compliment to my Canon 7D, something that allows me to learn, more than anything. I have been enjoying learning to read the light while using my 7D and I seem to be developing a feeling for it, so shooting fully manual could be a really nice challenge. I will read up on it a bit more. Thanks again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted August 18, 2011 Share #9 Posted August 18, 2011 Sunny 16 and the M2 are a perfect marriage. Somehow I always find it intriguing that you can load a film and start taking pictures without having to "switch on" anything. Pretty much everything else I have has a "on/off" switch. Oh, least I forget the M2 is an incredibly beautiful camera & built like a tank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_n Posted August 19, 2011 Share #10 Posted August 19, 2011 Personally I would recommend buying a hand held light meter as well, whichever camera you choose, and one that allows for incident light readings. Then you have the best of all worlds. You can still rely on Sunny 16, use the meter to spot check your own judgement to help train yourself, and incident readings are great for tricky light conditions/contrasty subjects.This is exactly what I do and I recommend the Gossen Digipro F; a flexible and very accurate meter with both an aperture and shutter speed priority readout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted August 19, 2011 Sunny 16 and the M2 are a perfect marriage. Somehow I always find it intriguing that you can load a film and start taking pictures without having to "switch on" anything. That would be the thought behind it for me. The M2 could save me a bit of money (although I'm not convinced it actually would), it has the design I love, and (most importantly) would give a great learning experience. This is exactly what I do and I recommend the Gossen Digipro F; a flexible and very accurate meter with both an aperture and shutter speed priority readout. I understand what you mean, but I think that is a considerable price to pay for something I would prefer not to use. I would much prefer that money to go into a few extra rolls of film. For me photopgraphy is all about learning, and I really don't mind using a few rolls of film without getting the results. As long as I have learned something, and I can learn by taking notes and seeing what the results were like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted August 19, 2011 Share #12 Posted August 19, 2011 Although I had an M6, I've relied on my M4 for the last 40 years. I had a meter for a number of years, but found in the end I mostly used it to check my "sunny 16" estimate. Although these days my DSLR works fine being meter controlled, when the M4 comes out, it is back to "sunny 16". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael-IIIf Posted August 19, 2011 Share #13 Posted August 19, 2011 Pretty much everything else I have has a "on/off" switch. . I get the same "thrill" from my piano. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
!Nomad64 Posted August 19, 2011 Share #14 Posted August 19, 2011 I get the same "thrill" from my piano. Not to mention my bicycle... Cheers Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted August 19, 2011 Share #15 Posted August 19, 2011 not to mention my wife........ Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 19, 2011 Share #16 Posted August 19, 2011 Somehow I always find it intriguing that you can load a film and start taking pictures without having to "switch on" anything. I don't have an M2 but I know exactly where you are coming from with this observation. I know that "batteries are small blah blah" but there is something quite liberating to be able to use a camera without needing to think about whether it is 'charged up'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smb Posted August 19, 2011 Share #17 Posted August 19, 2011 The M6 or M6ttl are newer models and can easily be found in excellent plus condition and you will be able to begin shooting immediately. An M2 is a older model and hence is more likely to need repair. The difference in price could be a couple of hundred dollars which is the cost of a new meter. The quality of the image is very dependent upon the lens and for both cameras the lens will be the same. As far as build quality of the M6 I have no complaints. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 19, 2011 Share #18 Posted August 19, 2011 OTOH, the M2 is better made and does not have electronic components that can wear and corrode. They have been around for a while too, so the need for a CLA or not is moot in both cases. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted August 19, 2011 Well, it is a point I have been thinking about. So far I have been able to find M6 bodies in mint condition and working smoothly, for a good price, and at a reputable dealer. The M2 is a bit more difficult. I get the impression that at the end of the day, a good, smooth working M2 will cost the same or even more than an M6. Which doesn't have to be a deal breaker, since I love the clean M2 design, but I think it might take a bit of extra effort to get the right M2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 19, 2011 Share #20 Posted August 19, 2011 It is good that you have a sense for exposure if you realize it is different for film negatives than digital. I really liked my M2. If I were to get one today to use Sunny-16 I would first get a CLA, lest erratic shutter speeds confuse your confidence. I have two M4s that have shutter speeds so out of whack that I'd trust neither, under any circumstance. (These cameras were very heavily used/abused.) So, I'd say an M2 with a good CLA might please you very much. Thanks to moderator Andy Barton, here is a link of Leica Repair People. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-blog/leica-repair-specialists/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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